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Faith1960
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I’m pretty sure science has, and I don’t need to come back to argue, I’m the OP. Based on the posts I’ve been reading, my question in the OP apparently has been answered in a roundabout way.
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Blue_Horizon
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Della you have been challenged to quote and reference sources to contradict the sources and quotes that have been provided to you. If you do not then your unusual, subjective views and unbacked inferences do not have any authority whatsoever, in fact they start to fly in the face of reality.
Ultimately your only “proof” so far is that Bernadette must be incorrupt simply because her body looks so real she cannot possibly wear a mask. This invites gullability.
You say you have the books that quote primary sources - yet you don’t make any effort to dig them out, re-inspect that primary evidence (to make sure your memory serve’s you well because its clearly been a while since you read them) and then quote it here.
Perhaps your books don’t really offer much of primary sources afterall? Perhaps you yourself have been duped by over pious, biased tertiary authors. It happens a lot.
In which case your unusual position in the face of reasonable evidence presented here against your opinions is barren. No amount of unsubstantiated further opinion from you can change this sorry
. Try and stand on solid ground and quote us something substantial from your books in the attic.
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Blue_Horizon
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Yes thats a sane and reasonable view of the facts.
If the primary material provided below is accurate (it should be as it is duplicated all across the Internet on sites devoted to Bernadette) then it is clear that parts of Bernadette’s face are certainly not incorrupt and that she does not really look today as she did the day she died - without the aid of human artistry. Reports make it clear her nose and eyes were sunken and the skin blackened after exposure to air. The body is quite dessicated with significant amounts of skin missing.
This vindicates secondary sources quoted below which state that the remarkably perfect appearance of her face today is aided by a wax mask constructed from an imprint taken of from her slightly sunken facial features deemed too offputting to show to the French public. This was a common practice in France - contrary to Italy where the most grotesque of bodies are kept in altars without concern.
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Blue_Horizon
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Yes pious writers of Bernadette endlessly repeat this but what they always ommit is that she was buried in an expensive, perfectly air-tight lead-lined coffin. Aerobic putrefaction and decomposition due to significant dampness was thereby arrested. Ordinary folk don’t get buried with that sort of mummification treatment.
My further investigations suggest she was not embalmed (still not 100% on that one). However the unusual thing I discovered was that it seems her coffin never made contact with dirt in the first place! It was placed in a stone vault.
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Della
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Not quite. You are ignoring much of what I cited. I don’t know why you won’t give me the benefit of the doubt when I’ve repeatedly said I have read several firsthand accounts. I’m not some nutcase with an agenda, I know what I read and I know what is true.
The books I referred to are readily available to anyone willing to look them up. Just Google Bernadette for them or go to Amazon.com where you will find plenty of books written by people who interviewed living witnesses instead of quoting articles written by people with 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge. This is my final word on the subject. Think what you will. I know the truth of this matter.In which case your unusual position in the face of reasonable evidence presented here against your opinions is barren. No amount of unsubstantiated further opinion from you can change this sorry
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Blue_Horizon
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Della I assume you do not know how the world of historical scholarship works.
The principle is simple. Noone will consider let alone accept anything controversial you may say on your word alone - unless you are a primary witness. Because you are saying no more than “trust me because I have read primary sources (maybe)” you have in fact nothing to say. Proof from self justified authority goes nowhere.
You have been asked repeatedly to share your primary data that denies our primary data but you just won’t do so. You simply say go look for it yourself. Given that those arguing against your position have done you the courtesy of backing up their position with actual source quotes and references for those quotes your view’s credibility has not only gone to zero but is now in negative territory.
So unless you can deliver as repeatedly requested I don’t see why anyone here would be interested in listening to you further . You may as well say we should believe in aliens because a friend of a friend of yours said she saw one
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thistle
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I’m curious as to why it matters. This is not any teaching on faith and morals and is nothing that binds us as Catholics.
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JimR-OCDS
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Blue Horizon
It wasn’t until the 3rd exhumation, that Beredatte’s body was placed an expensive sealed glass coffin that she is in today. Also, her face and hands are covered with a coating of wax, not a mask as someone else stated.
Jim
According to Joan Carroll Cruz, author of “The Incorruptibles,” Bernadette was buried in a wooden coffin. When her body was exhumed the first of three times, the sisters found that her clothing was damp and there was saw dust and charcoal around her body. They removed the body, washed it and put new clothing on her. Then, they put her into a double casket and she was returned to her grave.
It wasn’t until the 3rd exhumation, that Beredatte’s body was placed an expensive sealed glass coffin that she is in today. Also, her face and hands are covered with a coating of wax, not a mask as someone else stated.
Jim
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Faith1960
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I was in such amazement when I first heard about this but then was disappointed when I read more about it. Do you know if St. Catherine Laboure was totally incorrupt when exhumed?
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Faith1960
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We’re not required to believe in incorruptibles as Catholic, are we?
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JimR-OCDS
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Blue Horizon;
It wasn’t until the nuns washed her body and put new clothing on her, that they then put her into a more expensive coffin.
After the 3rd exhumation, they put her into the glass coffin we see her in today.
You are correct, she was placed into a crypt, according to various reading I have done.
Pope John Paul II was not embalmed and they had to take extra measures to keep his body from looking like a prune by the time of his funeral.
Also, it’s my understanding that Pope John XXIII, only his head is incorrupt.
Jim
From what I’ve read, St Bernadette’s body was first placed in a double wood coffin and put into a crypt in the convent. When they exhumed her body the first time, her clothing was damp, but she was incurrupt, i.e. face hands and most of her body was free of decay.
It wasn’t until the nuns washed her body and put new clothing on her, that they then put her into a more expensive coffin.
After the 3rd exhumation, they put her into the glass coffin we see her in today.
She was not embalmed, which was never done to nuns who died at the convent. Not sure if embalming was common during 1979. However, a person who is up for canonization, as they knew Bernadette would be at the time of her death, are never embalmed.
You are correct, she was placed into a crypt, according to various reading I have done.
Pope John Paul II was not embalmed and they had to take extra measures to keep his body from looking like a prune by the time of his funeral.
Also, it’s my understanding that Pope John XXIII, only his head is incorrupt.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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Don’t know the details of St Catherine of Laboure.
I did see her incorrupt body as well as St Bernadette, when I visited France in 1998.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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Faith1960
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Read my link from EWTN.
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JimR-OCDS
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thistle
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No we are not required to believe that any particular person’s body is incorrupt.
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Faith1960
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Good.
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Blue_Horizon
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Faith, being an engineer/scientific type, I went down this path re my faith when a teenager.
I have invariably discovered since then that one will never find solid scientific, objective “proof” of christianity let alone that God predilects the Catholic Church.
I am not saying miracles cannot and do not happen.
But they are far fewer than the gullible, the escapist, the power-grabbers and the deceitful (or deluded) writers/preachers of pious propoganda would have us believe
God works in the world…but subjectively - ie if you are lucky enough to be directly associated with a miracle then you have personal proof. BUT the “evidence” will never be strong enough to stand out clearly for those totally disconnected from the event.
God not only does not force hearts, he does not force collective minds (ie human history) either. That is a good thing, for faith (and hence love) would probably be weaker or non-existent if He did.
He gives just enough hints to make the species investigate - and if they are open, good reason to make the leap of faith.
Anyway that’s my take after 55 yrs of trying to make sense of it all.
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Blue_Horizon
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Thanks Jim.
This concurrs with all my research.
The only point I would appreciate further research on is the first coffin.
I am pretty sure the original coffin was lead lined, and the replacement after her 1st exhumation was zinc lined.
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JimR-OCDS
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The first coffin was sealed with lead, not lined.
There was charcoal and saw dust around Benedette’s body and I have to wonder if they treated the inside of coffins as they did barrels used for fine liqueurs and other liquids ?
It doesn’t really matter.
Our faith is based on Christ who is the source of life.
Jim
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