Increase of Atheists around the world, increase of crime any coincidence?

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upant said:
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Freddy:
But Catholics do exactly the same. Some adhere to exactly what their church teaches. Some do not. That is, each Catholic makes a choice as to what moral rules apply to them individually
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Catholics don’t have a choice. They can’t pick and choose what to follow and be in complete fellowship with the church.
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That they are not in fellowship is a given. But the fact that so many do indicates that almost everyone makes up their own mind about moral matters.
 
Couldn’t agree more. And something else that always irritates me…why is it thought to be such a necessity for everyone on the face of the earth to follow the same moral code? We have laws in place, developed by society, which are the boundaries of what will and won’t be tolerated. Now that, is necessary. But the other stuff? I don’t get why people gasp at the thought of different people having moral compasses that don’t all point exactly in the same direction. Do they find that scarey? I don’t. I enjoy the diversity and the different viewpoints. It makes the world an interesting place.
 
QwertyGirl said:
I don’t get why people gasp at the thought of different people having moral compasses that don’t all point exactly in the same direction. Do they find that scarey? I don’t. I enjoy the diversity and the different viewpoints. It makes the world an interesting place.
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It’s likely because the viewpoints are contradictory that there is tension.
 
I think it’s simply distaste and doesn’t really need a reason since it’s mostly an emotional response.
 
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macska said:
Haha! What backs up the bible, or the miracles?
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Even Jesus’ Enemies knew He existed and performed “miracles” which they maintained were Sorcery.

The one Miracle denied was the Resurrection…

Starting in Jerusalem - the explosive Spread of Early Christianity was not formed via the Bible…

The Big Question was never - The Bible? -

Rather FAITH (or not) in JESUS…

_
 
I don’t know about that. Anyone is capable of committing a crime.
 
Freddy said:
That they are not in fellowship is a given. But the fact that so many do indicates that almost everyone makes up their own mind about moral matters.
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no, they choose not to follow the church.
Saint Augustine — ‘Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it’
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macska said:
No, never. What eye-witnesses are you talking about?
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how about lourdes?
A total of 67 miraculous healings have been recognised at Lourdes since 1858, when a 14-year-old peasant girl claimed that she had seen the Virgin Mary in a cave.
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upant said:
how about lourdes?
A total of 67 miraculous healings have been recognised at Lourdes since 1858, when a 14-year-old peasant girl claimed that she had seen the Virgin Mary in a cave.
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I had some time on my hands a few years back. And I checked the rate of spontaneous remission from cancer and the rate at which it was prevelant in the general population. Then I checked how many people visited Lourdes and consequently how many were likely to have had cancer. Then I checked how many confirmed miraculous cures there had been for cancer.

The figures showed that you were more likely not to recover from the disease if you went to Lourdes. It actually made your chances of survival worse.
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jan10000 said:
An Atheist would say the opposite. An atheist could say Catholicism increases suffering.
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Your post would be a great deal of fun to completely dismantle one point at a time, but let’s start here.

An atheist would see absolutely no value in suffering, so an atheist believes any discomfort imposed by moral precepts and liturgical rules are creating unnecessary suffering due to limitations on self-indulgence.

For an atheist, feelings and pleasure are the benchmarks for morality, ergo any deprivation of those is evil. Self-discipline, temperance, altruism, self-sacrifice, are all causes of suffering and displeasure, which is why atheists think that “Catholic dogma is immoral.”

If atheism is true, we could just as well ask of the atheist “Why be a good person if what you think is good is irrelevant?” A “good” person according to an atheist is one who seeks pleasure and avoids pain, not one who goes out of his way (i.e., self-sacrificing) to help others in need. What reason would an atheist have for putting him/herself out to help those in need since that would involve pain and discomfort to the only conscious subject in his/her world, i.e., him/herself? Others and their concerns wold be irrelevant to an atheist because their awareness is not his/hers, because there is no transcendent realm, merely pure subjective experiences and the purposeless material order that provides no grounds for morality. So why should we believe that an atheist world view is at all moral, since it is compatible with self-indulgence and not self-giving?

I suppose you will consider my generalizing about atheists and atheism to be beyond the bounds of rational discussion, but how is YOUR generalizing about Catholicism and Catholics any different?

I will take up each of your other points in turn shortly.
 
Freddy said:
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upant:
how about lourdes?
A total of 67 miraculous healings have been recognised at Lourdes since 1858, when a 14-year-old peasant girl claimed that she had seen the Virgin Mary in a cave.
Click to expand...
I had some time on my hands a few years back. And I checked the rate of spontaneous remission from cancer and the rate at which it was prevelant in the general population. Then I checked how many people visited Lourdes and consequently how many were likely to have had cancer. Then I checked how many confirmed miraculous cures there had been for cancer.

The figures showed that you were more likely not to recover from the disease if you went to Lourdes. It actually made your chances of survival worse.
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If I had a penny for every time I’ve read, “I once read a study,” or “figures show,” I would be rich. Now could you provide citations to actual studies that confirm what you say, or should we take it merely on your word as an unbiased observer with no negative view of religion or the supernatural?
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HarryStotle said:
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Freddy:
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upant:
how about lourdes?
A total of 67 miraculous healings have been recognised at Lourdes since 1858, when a 14-year-old peasant girl claimed that she had seen the Virgin Mary in a cave.
Click to expand...
I had some time on my hands a few years back. And I checked the rate of spontaneous remission from cancer and the rate at which it was prevelant in the general population. Then I checked how many people visited Lourdes and consequently how many were likely to have had cancer. Then I checked how many confirmed miraculous cures there had been for cancer.

The figures showed that you were more likely not to recover from the disease if you went to Lourdes. It actually made your chances of survival worse.
Click to expand...
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If I had a penny for every time I’ve read, “I once read a study,” or “figures show,” I would be rich. Now could you provide citations to actual studies that confirm what you say, or should we take it merely on your word as an unbiased observer with no negative view of religion or the supernatural?
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Nah. I can’t be bothered doing all the searches it took me to find all the info. But I can give you some first hand observations. I was in Lourdes a few months ago and I’d pulled a muscle in my back. Had a look at the cave, took some of the waters and would you believe it…I woke up the following day and it was worse.

So unless no-one else reading this thread has been there, we have a guaranteed current success rate of all attendees 0%.

I’m afraid that’s as scientific as we are going to get. Give me your address and I’ll send you another penny.
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Freddy said:
Nah. I can’t be bothered doing all the searches it took me to find all the info. But I can give you some first hand observations. I was in Lourdes a few months ago and I’d pulled a muscle in my back. Had a look at the cave, took some of the waters and would you believe it…I woke up the following day and it was worse.
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Perhaps God was telling you something?
 
HarryStotle said:
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Freddy:
Nah. I can’t be bothered doing all the searches it took me to find all the info. But I can give you some first hand observations. I was in Lourdes a few months ago and I’d pulled a muscle in my back. Had a look at the cave, took some of the waters and would you believe it…I woke up the following day and it was worse.
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Perhaps God was telling you something?
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Yeah. Pack suitcases lighter.
 
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