Increase of Atheists around the world, increase of crime any coincidence?

[upant]

But this will never be, because we are all different. So why be miserable and argue about it?

morals aren’t based on individual preference. atheists don’t have to follow any moral laws. there is nothing in their system that mandates them nor is there a basis that creates them. you are describing individual codes of conduct created by the person. Morals aren’t a reason to be miserable since you have no one to be accountable to if you violate them.

But you gave a reason for why sex outside marriage is wrong. And then went on to say that without God there is no right or wrong. If what you said about it was reasonable and correct then it’s reasonable and correct without any need to refer to God. Do you see what I mean? Sex outside marriage is not wrong because God says so (although He might). It’s wrong because you think it destroys the family unit.

not good enough because someone else can disagree. you have to have a basis for your reason that makes the rule the same for all and not just for some. morals can not be both good and evil or change from evil to good based on societal acceptance. that is what you promote.

we can choose not to follow the moral law but not change evil to good.

Reasons are plentiful and too varied to be enforceable as a moral law.

 

[EndTimes]

If you have reasons for following a particular moral code then I want to hear them. If you think that God has reasons then I want to hear what you think they are. If the only reasons you follow that code are ‘Because God commands it…’ then we have nothing to talk about.

That’s quite demanding, Freddy; very narrowing…

 

[Barnesy]

not good enough because someone else can disagree. you have to have a basis for your reason that makes the rule the same for all and not just for some.

That’s right! We need reasons that everyone can understand! But if someone is an Atheist or a Hindu then we need to tell them why something is wrong without saying God says so!

Dont you agree???

 

[upant]

That’s right! We need reasons that everyone can understand! But if someone is an Atheist or a Hindu then we need to tell them why something is wrong without saying God says so!

Dont you agree???

How do I explain God’s law, I teach them about Jesus, the rest falls into place if they believe and it won’t matter to them if they don’t, they will follow what they personally justify.

Without God, there is no reason to be or not be moral. it is all just individual codes of conduct, which can cover the spectrum of good and evil. Without God, I can’t say they are right or wrong.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

That’s right! We need reasons that everyone can understand! But if someone is an Atheist or a Hindu then we need to tell them why something is wrong without saying God says so!

Dont you agree???

How do I explain God’s law, I teach them about Jesus, the rest falls into place if they believe and it won’t matter to them if they don’t, they will follow what they personally justify.

Without God, there is no reason to be or not be moral. it is all just individual codes of conduct, which can cover the spectrum of good and evil. Without God, I can’t say they are right or wrong.

But you’ll have a reason why things are wrong. Wont you?? God is the reason to be moral and thats why you are moral but you can explain to some one why some thing is wrong. Theyll need to know or theyll do it anyway. If you tell me that something is wrong and you dont have a reason then ill keep doing it. If you have a good reason then I might stop.

Why cant you do that??

 

[upant]

Why cant you do that??

without God, how can I say they are wrong?

I can say the majority rules this or that but that doesn’t make it wrong!

I can say I believe it is because of ABC and someone else can say, no, it is because of DEF. Who arbitrates? What is my foundation without God? In a universe without God, based on randomness, there are no rules and what man makes as rules change over time. Child-sacrifice was evil, now it is acceptable. Is child-sacrifice moral? it’s legal but is it right?

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

Why cant you do that??

without God, how can I say they are wrong?

I can say the majority rules this or that but that doesn’t make it wrong!

I can say I believe it is because of ABC and someone else can say, no, it is because of DEF. Who arbitrates? What is my foundation without God? In a universe without God, based on randomness, there are no rules and what man makes as rules change over time. Child-sacrifice was evil, now it is acceptable. Is child-sacrifice moral? it’s legal but is it right?

Okay let’s say some one has five year old child and wants to sacrifice her and hes an Atheist. Even if he didnt agree with you that it was wrong how would you tell him? If you say because of God then he wont listen. But we know its wrong anyway. So what would you say??

 

[Pattylt]

I have a question. You state that atheists can choose any moral system they want, correct? Didn’t you choose to be Catholic? Haven’t you chosen your moral system by saying you believe in God and follow His moral code?

I’m trying to see how your choice is so much different than an atheist that chooses say, humanism? Unless you do not make the choice to believe in God?
Thanks…

 

[upant]

I’m trying to see how your choice is so much different than an atheist that chooses say, humanism?

It is not the law we choose, it is the truth of the law. I try to follow God’s law. I don’t get to make my own laws. I don’t get to toss out the ones I don’t like. God’s law doesn’t change. The same can not be said for humanism. Without God, life is random and without purpose. there are no universal rules. The individual is free to follow some rules today and discard them tomorrow when the rules no longer fit their lifestyle.

what in humanism holds all people accountable to the same unchangeable idea? who are you accountable to? in humanism, is there a universal right and wrong? if you say yes, what if someone disagrees. you have no arbitrator, people are free to disagree. Doesn’t the problem become who is right when people disagree? Is child sacrifice evil or good? in humanism you find both opinions, both options are considered moral to different people. This can’t be. God’s followers may disagree on child sacrifice but the law doesn’t.

Okay let’s say some one has five year old child and wants to sacrifice her and hes an Atheist. Even if he didnt agree with you that it was wrong how would you tell him? If you say because of God then he wont listen. But we know its wrong anyway. So what would you say??

this is happening today, both sides think they are moral. Without a higher authority, you don’t have a definite answer. the argument comes down to what people feel. without God, there is no right answer and both sides are free to think they are moral. it is a matter of opinion. Without God, why are they wrong? It may be a good idea for a dying planet if that child has no soul.

nothing in atheism requires morals, God requires us to follow his rules.

 

[Barnesy]

Pattylt:

I’m trying to see how your choice is so much different than an atheist that chooses say, humanism?

It is not the law we choose, it is the truth of the law. I try to follow God’s law. I don’t get to make my own laws. I don’t get to toss out the ones I don’t like. God’s law doesn’t change. The same can not be said for humanism. Without God, life is random and without purpose. there are no universal rules. The individual is free to follow some rules today and discard them tomorrow when the rules no longer fit their lifestyle.

what in humanism holds all people accountable to the same unchangeable idea? who are you accountable to? in humanism, is there a universal right and wrong? if you say yes, what if someone disagrees. you have no arbitrator, people are free to disagree. Doesn’t the problem become who is right when people disagree? Is child sacrifice evil or good? in humanism you find both opinions, both options are considered moral to different people. This can’t be. God’s followers may disagree on child sacrifice but the law doesn’t.

Okay let’s say some one has five year old child and wants to sacrifice her and hes an Atheist. Even if he didnt agree with you that it was wrong how would you tell him? If you say because of God then he wont listen. But we know its wrong anyway. So what would you say??

this is happening today, both sides think they are moral. Without a higher authority, you don’t have a definite answer. the argument comes down to what people feel. without God, there is no right answer…

But isnt there a reason you can think of why the man shouldnt sacrifice his five year old daughter?? I have asked for reasons and you haven’t got any. Thats weird!! I can think of lots!! Ill bet if you had a daughter and some one wanted to kill her then youd have lots as well! Unless you said dont kill her because God wouldnt like it!

But I bet God has lots of reasons why he shouldnt do it. He wouldnt say no for no reason. That wouldnt make sense. And God has to make sense! So if you have no reasons then what do you think Gods reasons are?

 

[Barnesy]

And what Patty said is right too. If you say that some rules are true and you follow them because they are true then you must have thought hmmm this rule is true because of something. So if the rule is true that you mustnt kill the little five year old girl then it must be true because of something.

Can you tell us what something is?? God wants us to follow his rules because of some reasons. Tell me what the reasons are.

 

[QwertyGirl]

what in humanism holds all people accountable to the same unchangeable idea?

Why do you find this to be necessary?

 

[Barnesy]

upant:

what in humanism holds all people accountable to the same unchangeable idea?

Why do you find this to be necessary?

Maybe god tells somepeople not to do things because there might be things that go wrong if they did. But he didn’t tell my mum and dad about not getting married and nothing went wrong. Maybe its best if upant didn’t have children until after he gets married. Maybe god told him that so thats his rule and he should stick to it.

Some rules are important like not drinking too much and then driving a car. Not everyone has an accident but its still important because we know you cant drive the car very well. And some people are no good not getting married. The might have a baby and then leave. But lots of people like my mum and dad its fine. So maybe upant needs the rule the same as others and some people dont.

So some rules we need for everyone. Like stealing and drinking and driving. And some we dont. Like having children without getting married! Thats what I think anyway.

 

[upant]

But isnt there a reason you can think of why the man shouldnt sacrifice his five year old daughter?? I have asked for reasons and you haven’t got any. Thats weird!! I can think of lots!! Ill bet if you had a daughter and some one wanted to kill her then youd have lots as well! Unless you said dont kill her because God wouldnt like it!

you miss the point. individuals can do what they want. there are plenty of reasons not to do something or to do it. again, is abortion good or evil? without God, people can view it both ways and nobody can say the other person is wrong. my reasons will mean nothing to you if you disagree and we have no arbitrator to set the rule. the majority decides until they change their minds. abortion was illegal and now it is legal. is abortion now moral since it is legal? why would I follow your morality since it keeps changing?

If you say that some rules are true and you follow them because they are true then you must have thought hmmm this rule is true because of something.

look at the different world views, one has a higher authority who gave us His rules, the other is randomness and there are no rules. why don’t you tell me what the changing morals of the non-religious world are based on and what do you do when others disagree with your view. as we grow our reasons for doing/not doing things change, but our morals shouldn’t if they are based on truth.

Why do you find this to be necessary?

truth has to be based on something, so it is the same for all. otherwise, you have chaos. without an accountable authority, no one can say their truth is better than someone with the opposite view and they both can’t be right.

So some rules we need for everyone. Like stealing and drinking and driving. And some we dont. Like having children without getting married! Thats what I think anyway.

truth is universal and not based on individuals, that is the issue. you don’t get to pick and choose.

 

[Spaten]

truth is universal

There is no such thing as “truth”, there are zillions of true statements. And they cannot be separated from the surroundings - in other words they are dependent on the situation. What is “true” in one situation is not necessarily “true” in another one.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

But isnt there a reason you can think of why the man shouldnt sacrifice his five year old daughter?? I have asked for reasons and you haven’t got any. Thats weird!! I can think of lots!! Ill bet if you had a daughter and some one wanted to kill her then youd have lots as well! Unless you said dont kill her because God wouldnt like it!

you miss the point. individuals can do what they want. there are plenty of reasons not to do something or to do it.

I agree! People can do what they want. But it seems that you dont want to tell me what the reasons are. I asked politely and im not being rude so i dont know why you you wont. If someone is going to kill a little girl then there must be reasons we could tell the man why he shouldnt do it. You cant tell him he can do what he wants!! You have to tell him he cant do it because of good reasons.

Every one could do it so you must be able to so i dont know why you wont. It seems silly not to do it. Even if its because God told you then God must have a reason for it. So if you dont have a reason and its just God telling you then you can say so.

 

[Barnesy]

upant:

truth is universal

There is no such thing as “truth”, there are zillions of true statements. And they cannot be separated from the surroundings - in other words they are dependent on the situation. What is “true” in one situation is not necessarily “true” in another one.

Thats right! If some one says can i kill a cow then youd need to know all about why hes doing it. If his family is starving and they need to eat then yes he can. But if he says i want to kill it for fun then no he cant.

 

[Spaten]

Thats right! If some one says can i kill a cow then youd need to know all about why hes doing it. If his family is starving and they need to eat then yes he can. But if he says i want to kill it for fun then no he cant.

It is obvious that the “morality” of a physical act cannot be decided without taking all the circumstances into account. Even if we could agree what the criteria for “morality” might be… and that is impossible.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

Thats right! If some one says can i kill a cow then youd need to know all about why hes doing it. If his family is starving and they need to eat then yes he can. But if he says i want to kill it for fun then no he cant.

It is obvious that the “morality” of a physical act cannot be decided without taking all the circumstances into account. Even if we could agree what the criteria for “morality” might be… and that is impossible.

Cant we say that killing a cow for fun is bad becuase all you get is some fun but the cow has to die but killing it for food is ok because even though the cow has to die it feeds lots of people. Which is good. We just need to decide if theres more good than bad dont we?

 

[Spaten]

We just need to decide if theres more good than bad dont we?

And that is the point. The value system is subjective and will always remain subjective.