Increase of Atheists around the world, increase of crime any coincidence?

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

FiveLinden:

upant:

the atheist just denies it is from God and tries to explain it in terms even he doesn’t really believe like good, bad, best for society, etc.

Yes, I do use those categories. Why do Christians keep telling me what I believe?

So what is your basis for determining “good?” And on what grounds would you impose your notion of moral good upon others? Why your notion and not theirs?

Matthew 7:12. I’m sure you’d agree that it’s an excellent maxim under which we could all live. All the things upon which we would disagree (and there aren’t that many) are generally religious ideas about sex.

We aren’t speaking about you and you alone. We are speaking of atheists and believers. Your moral views are not necessarily those of every non believer. So merely because you happen to agree with Matthew 7:12 does not mean all atheists necessarily believe it to be “an excellent maxim under which we could all live.”

Besides, that doesn’t answer the question of what grounds there are for morality under atheism. You are using a Biblical text that very few atheists would accept as their grounds.

I doubt that Scripture is your grounds in any case, because you wouldn’t likely accept it as grounds for the principles you don’t agree with. So a ground that can be dispensed with at will or claimed to be a ground just to patronize others hardly functions as an actual ground.

From our experience on other threads, it is likely that you likely won’t even understand these points, so I am not sure it is worth my time engaging you again.

 

[Freddy]

In passing, may I say that I have never seen an atheist take this line of argument against Christians. It’s a schoolyard argument. ‘My dad is bigger than your dad’. Does it matter what the rates show? Is it important to anyone to think that they are more ‘civilised’ than another group of people? Does one group need to be demonised to make the other group feel good about themsleves?

I would have thought that a forum section on moral theology would be able to put forward better arguments than ‘crime is going up so atheists are to blame’.

But feel free to continue. I can’t see the point of starting such a thread but I’ll not stand by and allow fallacious comments to pass unchallenged.

 

[HarryStotle]

Which indicate that overall incarceration rates drop the less religious is the country.

No, the incarceration rates in Europe may be dropping because secular governments are not incarcerating for crimes and wrongs no longer considered to be criminal. It isn’t clear to me that the statistics @thorolfr is using take account of changes in the laws in Europe over time. For example, if prostitution was considered a crime 20 or 30 years ago, and no longer is, the incarceration rates could be lower because many are no longer being incarcerated for what may have been a fairly common crime/infraction.

That is why the citation needs to be provided so the data he is citing can be assessed.

Yeah, I know, not a big deal for you. Precision does matter if we are looking for the truth rather than mere numbers to prop us biases. If you know what I mean.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I like to look at the number of crime victims, along with crime rate. This measure says that the violent crime rates have been more or less flat since the mid aughts, after declining all through the 90s. Serious property crime has continued to fall though.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6400351-National-Crime-Victimization-Survey-2018.html

 

[HarryStotle]

In passing, may I say that I have never seen an atheist take this line of argument against Christians. It’s a schoolyard argument. ’

I am not sure that is true. The reason you may have never seen this line of argument from an atheist may be because atheists know that, for example, self-proclaimed atheist regimes in the past 150 years have horrendous records of murderous genocide, in particular, atheist communist dictatorships.

When there is no higher power to be responsible to, some governing authorities come to believe they are that “higher power” and set all of the rules, so have no impediment to murder and mayhem.

So, the question again: What reason is there for someone who truly believes human beings are nothing but bags of chemicals from having any compulsion not to terminate humans if that furthers ends that are important to them.

If I am a dictator controlling a large swath of population for what I see are my large-scale political ends, and you are merely an accumulation of proteins, minerals and biochemicals without an inherent value (to me) what is to stop me from killing you and others like you? Research the histories of China, Russia, Cambodia, Cuba, etc., etc. Perhaps you can provide an answer that would convince someone like Pol Pot or Josef Stalin that they ought to reconsider how they treat other human beings under their control.

 

[Spaten]

Both of which presume an acceptance of good moral agency. Neither provide the ground for which these can be imposed upon those in society would not accept them as morally imperative.

I want to repeat and emphasize: “RELATIVELY UNIVERSAL ETHICAL CODE”. Not universal code. There is none and never was nor there ever will be a truly universal ethical system. Especially because there are many ethical “systems” out there. (Deontological, command based, utilitarian - consequentialist, categorical imperative, and many others.) And there is no epistemology to decide which one is “better”. Different societies accept what they like.

So, the question remains: On what grounds is objective morality determined and made imperative for all?

Since there is no “objective” and “universal” ethical system, your question is meaningless and cannot be answered.

 

[Aquinas11]

Besides, that doesn’t answer the question of what grounds there are for morality under atheism .

The grounds for morality under atheism are based on power

What helps me gain power is “good”

What impedes me gaining power is “bad”

 

[ewohdrol]

Crime isn’t on the rise, at least not in the states. Crime is at some of its lowest rates in American history.

This is correct. It is a common misconceptional myth but the statistics suggest that crime is at it’s lowest. But people much prefer to remember the good old days and villify the now.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Not everyone is that ruthless.

 

[Aquinas11]

Since there is no “objective” and “universal” ethical system, your question is meaningless and cannot be answered.

If there is no “objective” ethical system, you couldn’t even objectively say “there is no…” or “meaningless” or “cannot be answered” since all of those require an objective ethical framework

 

[Freddy]

We aren’t speaking about you and you alone. We are speaking of atheists and believers. Your moral views are not necessarily those of every non believer. So merely because you happen to agree with Matthew 7:12 does not mean all atheists necessarily believe it to be “an excellent maxim under which we could all live.”

Besides, that doesn’t answer the question of what grounds there are for morality under atheism. You are using a Biblical text that very few atheists would accept as their grounds.

I doubt that Scripture is your grounds in any case, because you wouldn’t likely accept it as grounds for the principles you don’t agree with. So a ground that can be dispensed with at will or claimed to be a ground just to patronize others hardly functions as an actual ground.

From our experience on other threads, it is likely that you likely won’t even understand these points, so I am not sure it is worth my time engaging you again.

Not speaking to me alone? Well the question was directed to me personally. And I took the opportunity to use a biblical text because this is a Catholic forum. Quite straightforward. But I coukd have used any number of philosophical texts from across the ages. My thanks to my good chums at Wiki for these:

‘Hence, (keeping these in mind), by self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself’: Sanskrit

‘Do not do to others what you know has hurt yourself’: Tamil

‘Do not do to others what you know has hurt yourself’: Thales

‘Do not do to others what you know has hurt yourself’: Persian

‘Treat your inferior as you would wish your superior to treat you’: Seneca

‘Pay, Oh Children of Adam, as you would love to be paid, and be just as you would love to have justice’: Quran

‘And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself.’: Bahai

There’s plenty more but I can’t be bothered cutting and pasting so many. So scripture is a great source for philosophical maxims. I just don’t restrict myself to Christian scripture. It’s a moral position that is universal. That’s why it appears so often throughout the ages. Jesus was simply affirming the fact that people should live that way. Nobody is likely to argue. It’s universal. Agreeing with it is easy. Complying with it is not.

For example, I’m sure that you wouldn’t want anyone suggesting to you that relatively simply points being made are beyond your understanding. It would be a patronising attitude to take. But that doesn’t stop you from taking that attitude yourself.

 

[Aquinas11]

Not everyone

Hence the two words “under atheism “

The grounds for morality under atheism are

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That wouldn’t cross over into criminal territory.

 

[HarryStotle]

I like to look at the number of crime victims, along with crime rate. This measure says that the violent crime rates have been more or less flat since the mid aughts, after declining all through the 90s. Serious property crime has continued to fall though.

DocumentCloud

Except this is US only, not Europe. So no comparison is being made that answers my objection.

Secondly, there has been a rise in atheism (4% see below) in the US, and your own data shows a rise in crime in almost every area, especially in 2018.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Pew says 4% of US adults are atheist up from 2% in 2009.

So, rising rates of atheism, and rising rates of violent crime may indicate a correlation. At least, one stronger than your US vs Europe comparison.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

We aren’t speaking about you and you alone. We are speaking of atheists and believers. Your moral views are not necessarily those of every non believer. So merely because you happen to agree with Matthew 7:12 does not mean all atheists necessarily believe it to be “an excellent maxim under which we could all live.”

Besides, that doesn’t answer the question of what grounds there are for morality under atheism. You are using a Biblical text that very few atheists would accept as their grounds.

I doubt that Scripture is your grounds in any case, because you wouldn’t likely accept it as grounds for the principles you don’t agree with. So a ground that can be dispensed with at will or claimed to be a ground just to patronize others hardly functions as an actual ground.

From our experience on other threads, it is likely that you likely won’t even understand these points, so I am not sure it is worth my time engaging you again.

Not speaking to me alone?

ABOUT not TO. Read what I wrote.

What does the rest of your post have to do with what grounds there are for morality under atheism ?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Besides, that doesn’t answer the question of what grounds there are for morality under atheism .

The grounds for morality under atheism are based on power

What helps me gain power is “good”

What impedes me gaining power is “bad”

That wouldn’t be a ground for morality so much as for authority.

 

[Aquinas11]

So scripture is a great source for philosophical maxims.

Atheists believe Scripture is a great source?? How can the same Scripture that is God inspired be a great source to those who insist God doesn’t exist?

 

[Aquinas11]

Yes it was a little tongue in cheek

 

[upant]

There is a standard.

you asked about better behavior and I said no because there is no standard. it has nothing to do with the crime rate.

if you haven’t figured it out, I don’t single out the atheist.

But as we have seen that the rate is going down

too many variables, why is it going down? less enforcement? loosening of the laws? social policies like the one that protected the Parkland shooter?

Yes, I do use those categories. Why do Christians keep telling me what I believe?

Tell me, what is good? if I disagree how do we determine who is right?

Matthew 7:12. I’m sure you’d agree

what if someone doesn’t? do you believe in the authority this statement is backed by? do all atheists? what if they don’t? who settles the disagreement? if you don’t believe in the authority it is just a feelgood statement to live by and an individual code.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So scripture is a great source for philosophical maxims.

Atheists believe Scripture is a great source?? How can the same Scripture that is God inspired be a great source to those who insist God doesn’t exist?

Not just Christian scripture. There’s a lot of knowledge out there. It would be insane to ignore it. And as I said, apart from specific religious commands, there is very little about morality with which we would disagree. As I pointed out, the Golden Rule is universal. Should I ignore it because it was meant to have been emphasised by the Son of God?