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benjohnson
Guest
As a Lutheran, I don’t find the answers convincing…
But that I urge you to consider that even a “flawed” Catholic church is still a great place to be.
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But that I urge you to consider that even a “flawed” Catholic church is still a great place to be.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Well, I wish you well in finding the truth. I’m. glad you’re looking into Catholicism right now. Might I suggest you read some saints while you’re on this search? I also sought faith when I was your age and found that the lives of the saints were really impactful to me.
May you find the truth, peace and joy.
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Zulfiqar
Guest
Thank you, I appreciate your kind words. Do you have any suggestions on books about the saints? I’m currently reading “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism”, hoping to combat the Adventist discrimination that I have.
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Marybeloved
Guest
The. absolute best book I can think of right now is: *The Story of a soul * by St. Therese of lisieux also known as “the little flower”- She’s a very special saint who is very well beloved in Catholicism. A biography of St. Francis of Assissi would also be good, though I can’t think of a particular title right now. I think that few things are more effective than witnessing the truth lived in the world and its fruits such as we witness in the lives of the saints. I’ll look for links and post them to you.
Peace
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Peter_J
Guest
Whoa. Where did your parents fit into all that?
-] Btw, how old are you now? (No need to give your precise age, of course, but maybe an age bracket, e.g. “college age”.)/-]
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StevenFrancis
Guest
I’ve seen a few people going through this indecision within the one Holy catholic and apostolic church. Being a Catholic since only 2006, and not having any Catholic background prior to 2004 or so, these are the kinds of things where I become acutely aware of the depth of my ignorance regarding so many aspects of this Church that I am so in love with. To my limited understanding, Eastern Catholics are still in communion with the see of Rome, and acknowledge the primacy of the seat of Peter. If this is the case, that it would seem that the differences, (if we’re not talking about Eastern Orthodoxy, but rather Eastern Catholicism, yes?), are in liturgy, and the calculation of Easter. There is no theological divide. Am I wrong on this? This is an honest question. If one is a Catholic, and a Catholic who acknowledges the papacy, then does it matter terribly whether you practice the liturgy in an Eastern Rite or the Roman Rite? I suppose one could have an affinity of heart for one or the other. (I’ve never even experienced an Eastern rite liturgy), but would that really pose a problem requiring an anguishing decision. May a Roman Catholic routinely attend mass at an Eastern rite Catholic Church in communion with Rome, or are their some Canon laws which complicate matters. If so, that would be sad. I’d like to experience all kinds of flavors of Holy Mass without guilt and certainly without any kind of disobedience to the Church. Nobody explained to me at any point that it was a choice that needed to be made. Did I cut myself off from a good numbers of my brothers and sisters because I live in a Roman Catholic environment? If I moved to a community which was in the neighborhood of an Eastern Rite parish, would I be able to make that my new home parish, or would it take some kind of permission from Bishops, and so on? I’m genuinely curious. I don’t quite understand the problem, and it’s embarrasing to a certain extent, because I am Catholic, and I am a faithful and obedient Catholic. I don’t want to be walking around not understanding something which causes brothers and sisters of mine in the body of Christ so much internal turmoil. Any help in understanding this issue is appreciated, so I can be empathetic to the people faced with this.
Blessings,
Steven
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Zulfiqar
Guest
Well, I didn’t have much of a choice in Episcopal (infant), Pentecostal (young child) or Mormon (11). I chose Islam at the age of 14. My mom is currently a Seventh-day Adventist (however she is . . . not the best at it lol). Um the Hindu dabbling occurred because my best friend is a Hindu. Witchcraft because I loved Harry Potter and wanted to have magical powers too. So yeah. Up through Mormonism was not my choice. Seventh-day Adventist is what my mom is now (she was baptized into it around a year ago) and I go to meetings with her usually.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Hello Steven,
No, even though you’re canonically Roman rite, you are as a Catholic quite free and even encouraged to participate in all rites of the Catholic Church. If you find you move, no
problem, you can freely and regularly participate in any Catholic parish you please. You. can change your canonical status once, officially which has some impact on the canonical status of your children and the celebration of marriage, who your Bishop is etc. But in terms of mass, communion, I think even confession, a Catholic can approach any Catholic parish and/or priest for these sacraments.
I think that the poster you were referring, WoundedIcon, was talking about not being Catholic at all, since his complaints were the difficulties of being a Catholic in the present. situation in the West, post the abuse scandal, the growing anti religious secularization tide which can often be very anti Catholic due to the obvious picture of our church as the mother or perfect icon of a large organized religion etc.
@ WoundedIcon,
I suppose the best we can do is remember that the early church were seen as a very evil group of people who ate children which is why persecution against them was so easily done and then so severely too. Ditto Our Lord who must have seemed to the Jews who disbelieved him, a very evil person- because afterall, what kind of a person makes himself equal with God, uses evil magic to dupe people and even teaches human cannibalism? No wonder his persecution and execution were so severe! The cross will always be with those who love him in one way or another. Remember he told us, that if they hate you, remember that they hated me first.
You’re only 23 now. In a few years you’ll discover that you’ll have less and less need of the approval of your peers. Just hang in there.
Peace.
I
Izdaari
Guest
I wouldn’t say those who switch between different flavors of Christianity are “indecisive in picking a faith”. They are decisive: they have picked Jesus and are doing their best to be faithful to Him. A person’s opinion may shift regarding which visible church best serves Him… but a shift in that doesn’t indicate any lack of loyalty to Him.
Now, those who waver between Christianity and Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., those folks are indecisive in picking a faith!
Now, those who waver between Christianity and Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., those folks are indecisive in picking a faith!
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jrtrent
Guest
Interesting perspective. In the same sense, a person could be loyal to the God who revealed himself to Abraham, and experience shifts in his opinion as to which religion serves Him best (Judaism, Christianity, Islam , Baha’i). I wish to be faithful to the God who gave his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be the propitiation for our sins. I have ended up worshipping at Presbyterian, Mormon, Baptist, Lutheran, and Anglican churches (with extended stays at several others as I tried to learn more about Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.). Going from Presbyterian to Mormon to Baptist and finally to Lutheran (AFLC) was a result of changes in doctrinal belief; going from Lutheran to Anglican was spurred by internal dissent/split of the Lutheran church I was attending, there being no other AFLC church in the area, and a growing appreciation for the creeds, early councils, and tradition of the church. Perhaps all these changes show indeciveness or a lack of resolve, but my conscious intent has been to worship God as honestly and truely as I can.
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houseofsaul
Guest
Amen.
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CMatt25
Guest
Terrific post. A person might be baptized in and a member of one church. Perhaps believes certain tenets of another. But perhaps thinks another does a superb job providing outreach for the needy. Maybe sees the spirit of Christ exemplified exceptionally in certain pastors. And chooses their place of worship accordingly. But all the churches Christian united in Him as Lord and Savior. I liked your post. God bless you and peace.
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Jensbug
Guest
I guess my journey is a little different than most.
Historically my family was Lutheran and then Baptist after moving to the south. I was never baptized and my family (mother and grandmother) were never that religious. I have two family members that are very religious. They helped drive me away as did the church we would occasionally go to. They were awful. Granted they wrote a very nice letter a few years ago apologizing for some of the things they would tell me as a young child, I’ve still been unable to forgive. One letter really isn’t enough.
Around 13 I came to the conclusion that there is just too much suffering and (for lack of a better word) evil in this world for God to exist. Why would something so powerful, all knowing, not intervene with some of the worst atrocities? If god did exist and still allowed such evil to happen, in my eyes, it isn’t a god worth worshiping. The only things that made any sense to me were atheism and buddhism. But even with buddhism there were a lot of hangups. So I mainly stuck with atheism.
As an atheist I never debated whether or not there is a god, since no one can prove god’s existence. I just never worried about it. But what did worry me was the loss of loved ones. When my grandmother died, a huge piece of me went with her. I was no longer able to be okay with the thought of never seeing her again. So I began my religious search. I have been bouncing from church to church ever since. Something always drives me away. A bad sermon, jerks, rude jokes made by the pastor (why I let the last church), intolerance, very uneasy feelings, etc…
So here I am. Thanks to a friend introducing me to the catholic church, I am starting RCIA tomorrow.
Historically my family was Lutheran and then Baptist after moving to the south. I was never baptized and my family (mother and grandmother) were never that religious. I have two family members that are very religious. They helped drive me away as did the church we would occasionally go to. They were awful. Granted they wrote a very nice letter a few years ago apologizing for some of the things they would tell me as a young child, I’ve still been unable to forgive. One letter really isn’t enough.
Around 13 I came to the conclusion that there is just too much suffering and (for lack of a better word) evil in this world for God to exist. Why would something so powerful, all knowing, not intervene with some of the worst atrocities? If god did exist and still allowed such evil to happen, in my eyes, it isn’t a god worth worshiping. The only things that made any sense to me were atheism and buddhism. But even with buddhism there were a lot of hangups. So I mainly stuck with atheism.
As an atheist I never debated whether or not there is a god, since no one can prove god’s existence. I just never worried about it. But what did worry me was the loss of loved ones. When my grandmother died, a huge piece of me went with her. I was no longer able to be okay with the thought of never seeing her again. So I began my religious search. I have been bouncing from church to church ever since. Something always drives me away. A bad sermon, jerks, rude jokes made by the pastor (why I let the last church), intolerance, very uneasy feelings, etc…
So here I am. Thanks to a friend introducing me to the catholic church, I am starting RCIA tomorrow.
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Mystophilus
Guest
The importance of the choice necessitates the cautiousness of the decision, and the ultimate solution is not necessarily as simple as a broad label like “Christian” or even “Catholic”, because there are intricate variations within both of those.
It took me a very complex twenty years, including a thorough investigation of Catholicism, to find that Anglicanism was what fits me perfectly, but it would be naive of me to claim that, merely because I am now convinced, I am now correct.
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NoWings
Guest
Being an agnostic is a very lonely place. You get to watch all of your peers talk about their “journey” or their “path.” An agnostic (to me) is a person sitting in the middle of the intersection, watching everyone walk past you.
However, were I to just adopt a faith that I couldn’t reconcile with what my own senses and heart tell me would amount to me playing a grown-up game of make-believe.
I’ve never made any formal commitments. I attended RCIA for a short while. I attended Divine Liturgy at both a Greek and a Coptic church. I’ve visited mosques. I’ve read up on just about every major faith, and quite a few minor ones, on Earth.
None of them have that lightning bolt of truth about them to me. There are some things that I think hit upon the truth, chant being one of them.
I reject Catholicism because of its stance on contraception and gays and women in the priesthood. I reject it because of its micro-managing of the business of a married couple (according to this very web site, my wife and I shouldn’t be married at all). I wonder why, if one believes in Genesis figuratively, then why would one believe in Christ literally? Where does the Bible stop being figurative and start being literal?
Some have told me to just convert anyway and work the details out later. I can’t do that. If I, from the outset, know that I’m going to be picking and choosing what I like and what I don’t like, then why would I adhere to that in the first place? I’d be the worst ultra-traditionalist, SSPX-high-fiving, furious Catholic were I to convert because that’s what, in my opinion, would be the most genuine position.
Still, it’d be nice to have the whole 2000 years of tradition, liturgy, iconography, statuary, saints, church fathers, and community to fall back on.
Truth is a lonely place.
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Mystophilus
Guest
There is an obvious self-serving bias in this, because I went from agnosticism to Anglicanism, but I would just like to mention that we get to have tradition, icons, saints, chanted liturgy, gay priests, women priests, and marriage with or without an intention to have children, and yes, I do mean that you can find all of those in a single parish. We also have a broad plurality of views on the literalism of Scripture, and each one is very sincere in its devotion.
Not every parish, or province, has all of them, but, from your description of your position, it occurs to me that high-church liberal Anglicanism would be well worth your investigation.
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NoWings
Guest
I find the Anglican use liturgy to be very dry. I wouldn’t get any spiritual nourishment from that. That, and I reject the idea of Protestantism as a whole. That’s assuming that I believe Christianity to be completely true, which I don’t.
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Mystophilus
Guest
I am not sure whether I am allowed to say this here, but what about the liberal end of Catholicism? Although they tend to be much less visible online, I have met a few Catholics IRL who are much closer to your views on these things than they are to the Vatican’s.
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NoWings
Guest
As I said before, were I to convert and adopt a faith, it would be the height of self-deceit and cheapening of the tradition itself if I knew from the outset that there’s a list of things that I just don’t think are correct. I believe in an “all the way or not at all” approach.
If you’re a Catholic, but you pick and choose what stuff you’re going to follow, then why be Catholic? You can’t even receive proper penance if you know for a fact that you’re going to go right back to what you were doing.
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benjohnson
Guest
It could be, but it doesn’t have to be.
Listen to your imgination - theres an infinite series of universes and and infinite amount of time. At some point you will exist again.
Listen to the laughter of children on a summer day. There’s truth there too.
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