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jj2011
Guest
Frankly, I think they’re great priests, but the motu proprio has not changed their status overnight. You might call them conscientious objectors to the Novus Ordo.
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skatepixie
Guest
Well, doesnt the MP state that wherever there is a stable group of faithful and a priest willing to say the TLM that it is okay?
(Note…I attend a former “indult”…but I am curious as to the status of these priests/churches)
(Note…I attend a former “indult”…but I am curious as to the status of these priests/churches)
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jj2011
Guest
Basically that’s the intent of the MP, sure. It is doing a lot of good where the bishops are implementing it. However, Fr. Perez and the other priests have serious problems of conscience with the Novus Ordo. Here are some interviews where these priests explained their problems a few years ago.
christorchaos.com/DefendingCatholicTraditionWithoutFearoftheConsequences.html
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skatepixie
Guest
So, because of these problems that they have with the Novus Ordo Missae, we should not attend their masses from a moral standpoint? Should we likewise not attend masses said by priests who have issues with the TLM?
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jj2011
Guest
I would have no problem attending their masses.
I thought the question on this thread was about their canonical status, and that won’t change overnight.
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skatepixie
Guest
It’s about both, I guess.
I should reword the question:
In the eyes of the church, following the Moto Proprio, is it okay to attend such a mass?
I should reword the question:
In the eyes of the church, following the Moto Proprio, is it okay to attend such a mass?
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BobP123
Guest
Yes, the MP has removed the 1984/1988 conditions under which the TLM could be said.
It seems that where independent priests say Mass falls into the category of private parish. So if the priest has been validly ordained, not that it wasn’t before, but the MP says it’s good.
So what. The Pope himself has expressed problems with the Novus Ordo.
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Silver_Thread
Guest
I only know of one such church… The Polish National Church. They do not believe in Papal infalibility, that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Their priests’ may get married and more. Their first Bishop was ordained by Jansenist bishops from the Old Catholic Bishops of the Netherlands. Their claim to true succession is shaky at best. Now do you want to attend the TLM offered by their priests’?
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thedavidwilson
Guest
The priests of these “independent” parishes still need faculties granted by the local ordinary(Bishop). If they do not have these then the Mass and other sacraments are illicit and do not fullfill your Sunday obligation. I think confession and matrimony become invalid under these circumstances. If the parish is on the diocese website then it should be OK to attend.
Now if you have a priest who does have faculties and says a private Mass then I think it is OK. But organizations like SPPX do not fall into this catagory.
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cam100
Guest
The response from TheDavidWilson is correct. The big problem with independant churches is not that they don’t like the Novus Ordo. The problem is that a priest must have the jurisdiction, or faculties from the bishop of the diocese to offer the sacraments. Without them, some sacraments are illicit and some, like penance and matrimony, are invalid.
Independant priests usually jusitify their actions by referring to the concepts of “supplied jusidiction” or “epikia”, which basically means that in case of emergency, a priest can administer sacraments without the usual faculties. The problem is that it does not seem prudent to consider most of these situations as emergencies or exceptions to the law.
Is essence, although attending a mass at an independent church is not sinful in itself (although the priest is probably sinning), it is uncertain that such a mass would fulfill your Sunday obligation, and any confessions to such a priest would probably be invalid.
Independant priests usually jusitify their actions by referring to the concepts of “supplied jusidiction” or “epikia”, which basically means that in case of emergency, a priest can administer sacraments without the usual faculties. The problem is that it does not seem prudent to consider most of these situations as emergencies or exceptions to the law.
Is essence, although attending a mass at an independent church is not sinful in itself (although the priest is probably sinning), it is uncertain that such a mass would fulfill your Sunday obligation, and any confessions to such a priest would probably be invalid.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
As some posts have now developed, the problem isn’t with attitudes but with the legal status of the priests. The MP extends the right for any Roman Rite priest who is not otherwise impeded to use either the 1962 books or the 2002 books. Independent priests, however, are impeded from saying Mass at all, and thus the MP does not extend any sort of legitimacy to their Masses or make them somehow “better” or “more justifiable to attend” than before. Even SSPX priests, where we can argue whether they are in schism or not, have been suspended a divinis and thus have not received some sort of “right” to say the '62 Mass without rectifying those suspensions - they still aren’t allowed to say that Mass because they aren’t allowed to say Mass at all. Since their status is arguably the best of the whole flock of those in “questionable communion” I think we can then apply that to everyone else.
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skatepixie
Guest
So, in short, such priests still have to be in union with the local bishop?
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Sure
Guest
Yes. It is a mortal sin for any suspended or excommunicated priest to say Mass or celebrate any of the Sacraments.
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UKcatholicGuy
Guest
One can attend Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X with no scruple of conscience. Confession and marriage is more debatable. But, as far as Mass is concerned, there is absolutely no problem with attending an SSPX Mass, and it most certainly fulfills one’s Sunday obligation.
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jj2011
Guest
No.I only know of one such church… The Polish National Church. They do not believe in Papal infalibility, that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Their priests’ may get married and more. Their first Bishop was ordained by Jansenist bishops from the Old Catholic Bishops of the Netherlands. Their claim to true succession is shaky at best. Now do you want to attend the TLM offered by their priests’?
Are you equating Fr Perez with the schismatic Polish National Church?
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thedavidwilson
Guest
Uhh…actually no. SSPX are schismatic just as the Orthodox Chruches. The only way their Mass can fullfill Sunday obligation is if there is no valid Roman Catholic mass available…and saying that the NO is corrupt and traveling 100 miles to a SSPX mass does not cut it.
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BobP123
Guest
Wrong. (1) SSPX bishops are excommunicated, but there is no schism. (2) One should never feel forced to attend an NO, especially if he/she finds it a grave matter.
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thedavidwilson
Guest
I don’t think your feeling that the NO is an invalid mass or the priest celebrating it is not pious enough is considered a “grave matter”.
"which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop;"
The mass of SSPX does not satisfy this.
Again this is a common defense of SSPX: The NO is not reverent enough so Canon Law says I can attend a mass that is not sanctioned by the bishop. Any NO Mass sanctioned by the bishop is a valid mass in the eyes of the church so there is no grave matter present. Ask your bishop to see if it is grave matter. If he says no then out of obedience you should not attend a SSPX mass to fullfill your Sunday obligation.
BTW: If the bishops of SPPX are exommunicated then they cannot give valid faculties to the SSPX priests and I would call into question an ordinations they do while they are excommunicated. So we are back where we started. The SSPX mass is illicit and their sacarments are either illicit or invalid.
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BobP123
Guest
Why is this a problem? This has been happening since its inceptions by even not-so-conservative Catholics.
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