Indulgence for the Patriarch

[mardukm]

Thank you, and yes, I knew all that even though Cathiolics always think that non-Catholics are abysmally ignorant about even the simplest Catholic things.

No, I think it’s plain you ARE abysmally ignorant, because if you knew what an indulgence actually is, you wouldn’t keep asking this question.

The fact is, one must WANT the indulgence in order to obtain its grace. If you are any indication of the unbelief of the Orthodox in Catholic doctrines, then it’s quite plain that Patriarch Aleksii would be at least 10 times what you are - being an Orthodox hierarch and all.

Ultimately, it wouldn’t do him any good, so stop asking. And stop wasting time asking useless questions when you could be doing your part in praying for his soul.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

No, I think it’s plain you ARE abysmally ignorant, because if you knew what an indulgence actually is, you wouldn’t keep asking this question.

The fact is, one must WANT the indulgence in order to obtain its grace. If you are any indication of the unbelief of the Orthodox in Catholic doctrines, then it’s quite plain that Patriarch Aleksii would be at least 10 times what you are - being an Orthodox hierarch and all.

Ultimately, it wouldn’t do him any good, so stop asking. And stop wasting time asking useless questions when you could be doing your part in praying for his soul.

Blessings,
Marduk

You seem to be a little unaware of some not unimportant aspects of indulgences.

You see , Catholics who are alive may gain indulgences not only for themselves BUT ALSO for those who are in Purgatory. These people being purified may be quite unaware that somebody has undertaken some spiritual or charitable act on earth in order to obtain an indulgence for them. They find out only when the required act has been accompished on earth by their wellwisher.

People on earth may actually “allocate” the indulgences they gain quite specifically to, say, their deceased mother or to their favorite uncle or even to the 12th Dalai Lama. If these people should already be liberated from Purgatory then of course the indulgence is not nullifed or wasted but God allocates it to whomr He may choose who is still in Purgatory and still undergoing punishment for the temporal punishment due to their earthly sins.

I don’t really understand why you would say that gaining indulgences for the Patriarch “Ultimately, it wouldn’t do him any good.” I think you are quite mistaken about that. If he has punishment still to undergo in Purgatory then the indulgences would be very welcome and especially if somebody gains a plenary indulgence for him which will release him out of Purgatory and into Paradise.

stop wasting time asking useless questions when you could be doing your part in praying for his soul.

This is just SO judgemental, my brother. Besides my own private prayers for the Patriarch I have been in church and prayed for him at THREE parastosi-panikhida-requiem services with great numbers of people from our parish. Each memorial service takes around 30 minutes, so so far I have spent ninety minutes in official prayer for him, not counting private prayer at home.

On Tuesday when his funeral is taking place in Moscow our parish is offering the Liturgy and another longer requiem service and I shall be there as well - probably about 3 hours of prayer for him.

 

[Formosus]

Is it really in good taste to use the death of Patriarch Alexy II and the kind gesture of prayers offered by the Pope for his soul to make some sort of theological point?

Agreed. This topic is silly…

 

[rad]

Is it really in good taste to use the death of Patriarch Alexy II and the kind gesture of prayers offered by the Pope for his soul to make some sort of theological point?

Dear Nicholas,

Rad was not asking about Pope Benedict’s prayers. Instead the question was (in the OP)

This may seem an odd question but would the Pope consider giving a plenary indulgence to Patriarch Alexey or are indulgences only for Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics?

But now I do have a question - not about the Patriarch but about prayers for the dead in general in the Catholic world.

Would it not be more spiritually beneficial to concentrate on the prayers and charitable works of mercy which are able to gain indulgences instead of simply general prayers for the dead.

Indulgences have a dramatic impact on shortening the time of a soul in Purgatory. Plenary indulgences even gain immediate release. Indulgences seem a better way to assist the departed than simply prayers? I know that people will now accuse me of abysmal ignorance but indulgences are logically of better value than prayers for the dead (unless they are indulgenced of course).

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Rad,

I don’t really understand why you would say that gaining indulgences for the Patriarch “Ultimately, it wouldn’t do him any good.” I think you are quite mistaken about that. If he has punishment still to undergo in Purgatory then the indulgences would be very welcome and especially if somebody gains a plenary indulgence for him which will release him out of Purgatory and into Paradise.

Here’s some reminders and some things you may not know about the Catholic understanding of indulgences.

1. Ultimately, it is God who grants the indulgence. So, in my honest opinion, God knows who in the afterlife was a Catholic who would want it applied to their soul, and who was an Orthodox who would disparage the use of it;
2. ANY indulgence (plenary or otherwise) is AUTOMATICALLY applied to the spiritual needs of the one who requested it FIRST AND FOREMOST. A person cannot plea for a plenary indulgence except for HIM/HERSELF. Whatever “merit” or “grace” that is LEFT OVER from that indulgence (plenary or otherwise) AFTER it has FIRST been applied to the one who requested it is what is available to be applied to OTHER persons (alive or dead) AFTERWARDS
3. Hence, it is theoretically and practically not possible for the Patriarch to get a plenary indulgence (since we all agree, Catholic and Orthodox that he cannot perform any works for himself).

Hope that helps.

This is just SO judgemental, my brother. Besides my own private prayers for the Patriarch I have been in church and prayed for him at THREE parastosi-panikhida-requiem services with great numbers of people from our parish. Each memorial service takes around 30 minutes, so so far I have spent ninety minutes in official prayer for him, not counting private prayer at home.

On Tuesday when his funeral is taking place in Moscow our parish is offering the Liturgy and another longer requiem service and I shall be there as well - probably about 3 hours of prayer for him.

I never accused you of NOT praying for him. I just said that the time you spend asking senseless questions would be better spent praying for his soul. So if you ARE already praying for him, then pray for him more/ if you are not, then pray for him. My comment was not judgmental at all. However, if I offended you, I apologize.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

For further clarification - even if you THINK you are performing some good work for the purpose of an indulgence for someone ELSE, God will apply the grace of that indulgence to you FIRST. And I’m sure you will agree no one is perfect and will constantly need grace.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[JMJ_coder]

Indulgences, especially plenary indulgences, cannot be imputed objectively. One can certainly gain an indulgence for a person in Purgatory – but you cannot know whether you have gained a plenary indulgence or not. One of the reasons is because one of the conditions for the gaining of a plenary indulgence is to be completely detached from all sin, even venial sin. That basically means you are perfect – there is nothing in you that is attached to sin (the vast majority of us are still working on that, even if it is only the “little” things).

 

[tdgesq]

Dear Nicholas,

Rad was not asking about Pope Benedict’s prayers. Instead the question was (in the OP)

Yes, rad was asking about Pope Benedict’s prayers - literally twelve minutes after rad posted the OP:

News has just come in that the Pope has asked for prayers for Patrijarch Alexey’s soul. I suppose this means that he does not intend to give him a plenary indulgence.

Most of us read the two together since they were the first two posts in this thread - twelve minutes apart.

Would it not be more spiritually beneficial to concentrate on the prayers and charitable works of mercy which are able to gain indulgences instead of simply general prayers for the dead.

Yes it would be in that we know indulgences are given to the treasury of the universal Church and that they are always efficacious for the souls in Purgatory. We ask God to grant the same reprieve through suffrage to those souls as if they were living. We do not know though whether a particular prayer or prayers under the circumstances would be just as efficacious.

Indulgences seem a better way to assist the departed than simply prayers? I know that people will now accuse me of abysmal ignorance but indulgences are logically of better value than prayers for the dead (unless they are indulgenced of course).

It is difficult to compare as we are not certain of the degree of efficacy of a particular prayer in removing purgatorial punishment. An indulgence (which usually is a prayer) does let us know, at least in the case of a plenary indulgence.