Indulgence---what!!! (For reading the Bible)

[catholic1seeks]

Below is an indulgence listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991).

“A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. *The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].” *

Okay!! Now how did the CHURCH come up with “at least one-half hour” How does the Church know God will accept this kind of “indulgence”???

 

[jmcrae]

Below is an indulgence listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991).

“A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. *The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].” *

Okay!! Now how did the CHURCH come up with “at least one-half hour”

I don’t know, but it would be very interesting to research the history of this Indulgence. I know that it’s been around for a really long time, though, since I have it in a Bible that was printed back in the 1940s.

How does the Church know God will accept this kind of “indulgence”???

Because in Matthew 18:18 we read that Jesus gave the Apostles authority to do this kind of thing, and we know from history that they passed their authority on to the Bishops of the Church.

 

[Tom]

Below is an indulgence listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991).

“A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. *The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].” *

Okay!! Now how did the CHURCH come up with “at least one-half hour” How does the Church know God will accept this kind of “indulgence”???

We know because Jesus told us. God knows the future, we haven’t surprised Him. He knew the Church would be true before He told us.
www.drbo.org:

Matthew 16, 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

www.drbo.org:

Matthew 18,18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

God gave the authority to the Church leadership, He also left the Holy Spirit with the leadership to lead them to all truth. They (the Church leadership) are all sinful men, but they are guaranteed by God to teach the truth.

 

[1ke]

So, what’s the problem?

 

[Gamera]

Below is an indulgence listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991).

“A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. *The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].” *

Okay!! Now how did the CHURCH come up with “at least one-half hour” How does the Church know God will accept this kind of “indulgence”???

The Church didn’t “come up with” it in the sense of hearing it from God. Nobody claims that. Rather, the Church claims that it has authority from God to enact laws and rules, including laws and rules governing indulgences. So the Church decided to enact a rule granting a partial induldence for reading Scripture, and a plenary indulgence if the reading lasts 1/2 hour.

 

[abenassi]

The Church didn’t “come up with” it in the sense of hearing it from God. Nobody claims that. Rather, the Church claims that it has authority from God to enact laws and rules, including laws and rules governing indulgences. So the Church decided to enact a rule granting a partial induldence for reading Scripture, and a plenary indulgence if the reading lasts 1/2 hour.

---- and the “other” conditions are met, of which are fairly easy to meet except for the last one, which is extremely hard:

1. 
   *]Sacramental confession. A single sacramental confession suffices for gaining several plenary indulgences; but Communion must be received and prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff must be recited for the gaining of each plenary indulgence.
   *]Eucharistic Communion.
   *]Prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff. The condition of praying for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff is fully satisfied by reciting one Our Father and one Hail Mary; nevertheless, each one is free to recite any other prayer according to his piety and devotion.
   *]It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent. If the latter disposition is in any way less than perfect or if the prescribed three conditions are not fulfilled, the indulgence will be partial only, saving the provisions given in Norms 34 and 35.

 

[LilyM]

The Church has the power of binding and loosing heaven, and the Pope the Keys to the Kingdom, remember.

Just as it can make declarations about, for example, the status of certain persons as canonised Saints, so it can make these stipulations about indulgences.

 

[GraceDK]

WOW… thats awesome… I must have collected a whole bunch of indulgences and will continue to do so…!

No… seriously… I have a tough time with indulgences… it seems like magic to me in a mideval way that leaves me puzzled and quite sad… … and as far as I know it started to become a practice at the same time as the purgatory teaching got expanded and used for all kinds of noble and less noble purposes… …
no … no… it just does not make any sense to me…

I will be following this thread…

 

[LilyM]

WOW… thats awesome… I must have collected a whole bunch of indulgences and will continue to do so…!

No… seriously… I have a tough time with indulgences… it seems like magic to me in a mideval way that leaves me puzzled and quite sad… … and as far as I know it started to become a practice at the same time as the purgatory teaching got expanded and used for all kinds of noble and less noble purposes… …
no … no… it just does not make any sense to me…

I will be following this thread…

They are not magic any more than the sacraments are magic - they are the way God’s grace works in practice. God’s intent is for His grace to be applied in practical ways. That’s why Jesus went about baptising and that’s why He commanded at the Last Supper for us to ‘do this in memory of me’. THat’s why He taught the Apostles to baptise and absolve sins.

 

[GraceDK]

I’ll see if I can describe my difficulty. It seems that indulgences should not be able to add anything to the graces already given in the Sacrament of reconciliation…
If it is like I have learned… that indulgences reduces the time you deserve to spend purgatory… then the teaching makes very little sense to me because of the rest of church teaching on the temporal effects of sin…
???

 

[guanophore]

I’ll see if I can describe my difficulty. It seems that indulgences should not be able to add anything to the graces already given in the Sacrament of reconciliation…
If it is like I have learned… that indulgences reduces the time you deserve to spend purgatory… then the teaching makes very little sense to me because of the rest of church teaching on the temporal effects of sin…
???

I will give an example from recent events. A man was irresponsible and ran up $100,ooo and something in credit card debt. He could not pay, so he filed for bankruptsy. He was excused from the debt, but he still felt guilty. He goes to confession, and receives absolution for being a poor example to others, and a poor steward of God’s provision.

However, many temporal consequences of his sins remain. He is now a credit nightmare, and bad risk. Others have to pay higher interest rates to make up for his failure to pay what he owed. Everyone to whom he owed money has to write off the loss. He may not even know how many people have been affected by his transgression. It is for these temporal consequences that we seek indulgences. Sin harms people and society,and making reparation helps heal the wounds.

 

[e-catholic]

No… seriously… I have a tough time with indulgences… it seems like magic to me in a mideval way that leaves me puzzled and quite sad… … and as far as I know it started to become a practice at the same time as the purgatory teaching got expanded and used for all kinds of noble and less noble purposes… …
no … no… it just does not make any sense to me…

I will be following this thread…

I have had some difficulty also with this. I came to the conclusion that it is about healing. It is not magic, it is suggestions as to how we can repair the damage done by sin. The things that we receive indulgances for are always things that bring us closer to God, as well as the requirements that are there for all indulgences.

Now, I still have a problem with indulgences that are applied to the dead. How can I earn an indulgence for someone else.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Below is an indulgence listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991).

“A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. *The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour [provided the other conditions are met].” *

Okay!! Now how did the CHURCH come up with “at least one-half hour” How does the Church know God will accept this kind of “indulgence”???

Because what the Church binds on earth, God binds in heaven.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

WOW… thats awesome… I must have collected a whole bunch of indulgences and will continue to do so…!

No… seriously… I have a tough time with indulgences… it seems like magic to me in a mideval way that leaves me puzzled and quite sad… … and as far as I know it started to become a practice at the same time as the purgatory teaching got expanded and used for all kinds of noble and less noble purposes… …
no … no… it just does not make any sense to me…

I will be following this thread…

You haven’t gained any indulgences unless you intended to gain them at the time you did the act attached and were free from mortal and satisfied the other requirements of the Indulgence. So, no you didn’t gain an indulgence every time you read the Bible in the last 20 years.

 

[Gamera]

You haven’t gained any indulgences unless you intended to gain them …

Yep. This didn’t sound right, but I looked it up, and there it is. Canon Law 996, and Norms for Indulgences 20(2).

I learn something new every day.

 

[jmcrae]

---- and the “other” conditions are met, of which are fairly easy to meet except for the last one, which is extremely hard:

1. 
   *]Sacramental confession. A single sacramental confession suffices for gaining several plenary indulgences; but Communion must be received and prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff must be recited for the gaining of each plenary indulgence.
   *]Eucharistic Communion.
   *]Prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff. The condition of praying for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff is fully satisfied by reciting one Our Father and one Hail Mary; nevertheless, each one is free to recite any other prayer according to his piety and devotion.
   *]It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent. If the latter disposition is in any way less than perfect or if the prescribed three conditions are not fulfilled, the indulgence will be partial only, saving the provisions given in Norms 34 and 35.

1. 
   I was told by a very wise teacher that I trust, that the perfection in the fourth point doesn’t have to be permanent. If, at that particular moment in time, you are graced with freedom from all of your addictions, etc., then it’s like a new baptism - everything up to that point is erased, and were you to die at that moment, you would ascend directly into Heaven without going through Purgatory. Which I think is pretty cool.
   
   I used to think that the perfection had to be permanent, so I was giving all of my Indulgences to the souls in Purgatory - which is not a bad thing, I was told, since it helps to build up an army of Saints for oneself in Heaven, but I was also told to keep some of them for myself, too - that they wouldn’t be wasted on me.

 

[e-catholic]

Now, I still have a problem with indulgences that are applied to the dead. How can I earn an indulgence for someone else.

Can anyone help me out with this. I have never quite understood the idea of building merits etc. Can someone explain this to me in a way that I can understand better?

 

[Pug]

Can anyone help me out with this. I have never quite understood the idea of building merits etc. Can someone explain this to me in a way that I can understand better?

Now, I still have a problem with indulgences that are applied to the dead. How can I earn an indulgence for someone else.

I’m not sure of the nature of your objection, but note the phrase in this norm/rule about indulgences:

 n. 3—Partial as well as plenary indulgences can always be applied to the  dead by way of suffrage.

This snip is from here. So, maybe for you it depends on what “suffrage” means. Usually this means intercession (in this context it doesn’t mean voting). Prayer is one type of intercession. It is not quite the same as earning.

Though, maybe your question is more about the “treasury” itself, and not about indulgences for the dead, particularly.

 

[GraceDK]

I will give an example from recent events. A man was irresponsible and ran up $100,ooo and something in credit card debt. He could not pay, so he filed for bankruptsy. He was excused from the debt, but he still felt guilty. He goes to confession, and receives absolution for being a poor example to others, and a poor steward of God’s provision.

However, many temporal consequences of his sins remain. He is now a credit nightmare, and bad risk. Others have to pay higher interest rates to make up for his failure to pay what he owed. Everyone to whom he owed money has to write off the loss. He may not even know how many people have been affected by his transgression. It is for these temporal consequences that we seek indulgences. Sin harms people and society,and making reparation helps heal the wounds.

Sorry my friend, but that simply makes no sense to me.
Then you say that if I confess and weep my eyes out its not enough to repair the damage in the temporal realm.
But if I confess, weep my eyes out, read my Bible and do a certain set of motions to receive an indulgence then suddenly I have money in my bank account so I can pay back what I owe?
No… I dont think so… I think this logic mix up spiritual and physical realm in a way that is unlogical.

And as I believe that the physical as well as the spiritual man will be totally healed in heaven, I still see no need for indulgences.
Also… I see no Scripture verse that fits this practice…
Unless you think about the man that was asked to go and wash his eyes in the water and then he would be able to see… that was a test of his faith as I see it. God may reward that, but… well… let me ask you this:
Jesus… he went around and he forgave people. He forgave them and said “go in peace” and “sin no more” Thats all He said… He also said that he had made his disciples clean. WOW… what audacity… to FORGIVE people that have wronged others… how could He do this? Only because He was Who He said He Is. He took the Punishment of Sin upon himself. … The punishment… yes… and there is nothing I can do to undo a murder I comitted. The Penalty for that is death… But Jesus payed that prize… the whole of it, if I receive it in faith and repent then it becomes mine.

… I hope you are with me still in my line of reasoning… as you can see my question goes somewhat further than just the question of indulgences… It also has to do with “acts of contrition” and the whole punishment-thought.

You see, in Jeromes first translation of Scripture that was used well up into the middle ages, it was written: " Do penance ! for the Kingdom is at hand"… later translation of the original manuscripts made it clear that the passage actually said: “Repent ! for the Kingdom is at hand”… I dont have to continue to explain because you can imagine by your self, the difference in belief and practice that these two words launch the believers into.

Hope to hear from you again… maybe you can explain the indulgence-logic in another way to me and help me out here?

Shalom

 

[jmcrae]

Let’s extend the analogy.

Imagine that the debtor who owed $100,000.00 had a wealthy friend - an infinitely wealthy friend - and not only that, his friend is extremely generous. But, he doesn’t want to be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous, so he wants to make sure that when he bails someone out of their troubles, that they will be appropriately grateful. So, he asks for some sign or token to signify the sincerity of the person’s request - maybe he hires the person, or the person’s children, to do some kind of simple job or jobs in his office, or at his home, or something like that. Nothing arduous, but just something that keeps the lines of communication open, and allows him to see how the person is doing.

Then, this wealthy friend pays the debt, but not only the debt of that man, but also the debts of everyone who was affected by the non-payment of the debt (since, if you have ever had someone not pay you back something they owed you, you know that you yourself go into debt, as well, because of not having the money at the time that you were expecting to have it). So, the wealthy friend finds all these people, compensates them for the interest they had to pay and the trouble that they went through - for example, if one of the children got sick and missed school because of the stress that the family was undergoing when they didn’t get their money paid back, the wealthy friend sends a tutor over to help the child get caught up with his school work, and gives the child something that will help him to restore his relationship with his friends at school.

The Treasury of Merits is nothing other that Jesus Christ on the Cross - and this is an infinite treasury of merit. Jesus is our infinitely wealthy friend.

We see a kind of model of Purgatory when we look at Jesus’ parable of the slave who had a debt to his master that he could not pay - a debt of such an astronomical amount that there was no way he was ever going to be able to pay it back.

He goes to his master, who threatens to put him in prison and sell his family, along with all of their possessions.

He weeps and pleads, and the master relents and releases him from the debt.

Now, if he is sincere, then he gets to keep this Indulgence. So, when he encounters the slave who owes him some piddling amount (we’ll say that this second slave is a soul in Purgatory) - if he is sincerely repentant, he remembers the generosity of his master and seeks to imitate it, so he releases his fellow slave from the small debt, and thus, both of them are free.

However, in actuality, his tears were crocodile tears; he was not sincerely repentant, so as soon as he was free, he sought to make good on his own debts, so he went after his fellow slave, and threw him in prison for the small piddling amount that this other slave owed him. His master heard about this, became enraged, and followed through on his original threat - he lost the Indulgence, because he was not truly repentant for his sins.