Indulgences, Do they contridict grace?

[unacanta]

I am quoting from the 1st chapter, second paragraph.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

1. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments.(4) Therefore it has always been the conviction of the faithful that the paths of evil are fraught with many stumbling blocks and bring adversities, bitterness and harm to those who follow them.(5)
2. Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
   Why if we are justified freely by His grace and have redemption through Christ do we need to have sins expiated by any means other than His death on the cross.? The justification means we are in correct legal standing before the throne of God. Paul teaches here we are redeemed by Christ, in other words He has paid the ransom price necessary for our legal justification.

2.Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

You must agree with me that it us in whom the following is refering:

"These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments.

If it is by our works (expiating our sins by , miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments) in which the sins are expiated then as Paul teaches “grace is no longer grace”

The entire teaching pertaining to Indulgences is fraught with doctrine which is contrary to grace taught by Paul in Romans.

So, what do you think?

Blessings,
Len

 

[Linda_Marie]

No, indulgences do not contradict grace. Indulgences do not forgive sins. An indulgence is the remission, either partial or full, of the punishment (justice) due as a result of our sins. They can only be applied to forgiven sins. God forgives us our sins when we repent and confess, but the effects of the sin are still there.

For example, if I throw a baseball and break my neighbour’s window, out of malice and spite (to make this a sin), I can repent and ask forgiveness. My neighbour can forgive me, I can even confess it to the priest and be forgiven but the window is still broken. The effect of my sin remains even though it is forgiven.

Another for instance, a man is unfaithful to his wife, repents and asks her forgiveness. She can accept his repentance and forgive him but the hurt from his infidelity remains. The effect of his sin, the stain, remains, even though he is forgiven. The relationship is damaged.

The stains of forgiven sins remain on our souls and must be cleansed before we can enter heaven since nothing unclean can enter heaven. Indulgences are one way to cleanse our souls of these stains. They are not by way of forgiving our sins.

From the Enchiridion of Indulgences:

Norms On Indulgences

1. An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned. This remission the faithful with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquire through the intervention of the Church which, as minister of the Redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the Saints.
2. An indulgence is partial or plenary, according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due for sin.

One of the reasons misunderstandings occur is because we mean different things by Justification, so when we present an explanation, it goes right past because the terms are understood differently. Here is a thread discussing our different understandings of this term.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=187257&highlight=justification

 

[tbuley]

From what I understand the RC idea of grace is that it is like a metaphysical substance. like you go to the grace station and fill up and then when you are “Full” of Grace, you can drive your car of works on up salvation mountain.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

From what I understand the RC idea of grace is that it is like a metaphysical substance. like you go to the grace station and fill up and then when you are “Full” of Grace, you can drive your car of works on up salvation mountain.

did you really register just to troll? no catholic believes they are saved by works. please search the forums

and scborromeo.org/ccc.htm here for ‘grace’

 

[Vincent]

If it is by our works (expiating our sins by , miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments) in which the sins are expiated then as Paul teaches “grace is no longer grace”

Besides wounding our communion with God, sin by its very nature entails a unhealthy attachment to creatures, especially the “No. 1 Creature”–“Me”.

By grace, God forgives us of our sins and restores our communion with Him. But if *we *refuse to be *totally *receptive to God’s grace, the unhealthy attachment to creatures that is entailed by sin remains.

This unhealthy attachment to creatures is the object of “expiating our sins”.

“[T]he sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or ‘purifying’ punishments” expiate our sins in the sense of reordering our attachment to God above every thing and every one, including and most especially ourselves.

This “expiation” is not something that we do on our own power. **In other words, “expiating our sins” is grace from beginning to end. **

What *we *can be said to “do” is refuse to be totally receptive.

 

[unacanta]

No, indulgences do not contradict grace. Indulgences do not forgive sins. An indulgence is the remission, either partial or full, of the punishment (justice) due as a result of our sins. They can only be applied to forgiven sins. God forgives us our sins when we repent and confess, but the effects of the sin are still there.

For example, if I throw a baseball and break my neighbour’s window, out of malice and spite (to make this a sin), I can repent and ask forgiveness. My neighbour can forgive me, I can even confess it to the priest and be forgiven but the window is still broken. The effect of my sin remains even though it is forgiven.

Well said, so the penilty for “breaking” windows is death.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the neighbour can forgive us for broken windows and God forgives us, why do you think the window must be fixed? When in fact it can never be fixed. Since a death sentence is demanded, we must die…or must we? Can it be someone else can die in our place?

Romans 5:16
The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned (broke the window); for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Our right standing is a gift and since it is the Judge whom has given us justification. The broken window was punished upon the cross. Remember:
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Another for instance, a man is unfaithful to his wife, repents and asks her forgiveness. She can accept his repentance and forgive him but the hurt from his infidelity remains. The effect of his sin, the stain, remains, even though he is forgiven. The relationship is damaged.

The stains of forgiven sins remain on our souls and must be cleansed before we can enter heaven since nothing unclean can enter heaven. Indulgences are one way to cleanse our souls of these stains. They are not by way of forgiving our sins.

Of course there lies the rub so to speak. The sin does not remain on our souls.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

We have to know and understand from the perspective of the Lord and what He sees, there is no sin.

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west,So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Hebrews 8:12
" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

From the Enchiridion of Indulgences:

One of the reasons misunderstandings occur is because we mean different things by Justification, so when we present an explanation, it goes right past because the terms are understood differently. Here is a thread discussing our different understandings of this term.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=187257&highlight=justification

Thank you for the thread. It is as you say, misunderstandings of the term.

Thanks for your response,

 

[unacanta]

Besides wounding our communion with God, sin by its very nature entails a unhealthy attachment to creatures, especially the “No. 1 Creature”–“Me”.

By grace, God forgives us of our sins and restores our communion with Him. But if *we *refuse to be *totally *receptive to God’s grace, the unhealthy attachment to creatures that is entailed by sin remains.

This unhealthy attachment to creatures is the object of “expiating our sins”.

“[T]he sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or ‘purifying’ punishments” expiate our sins in the sense of reordering our attachment to God above every thing and every one, including and most especially ourselves.

This “expiation” is not something that we do on our own power. **In other words, “expiating our sins” is grace from beginning to end. **

What *we *can be said to “do” is refuse to be totally receptive.

It is a matter of do we view ourselves as forgiven or not. The attonement of our sins has to rely completely and only on Christ and his finished works on the cross. Anything less places us in a postion where we are not quite sure if the sin is forgiven. Has the attonement (expiation) of sin been enough? Have we been able to restore the “window”? Where is the limit and how do we really know what God demands for broken windows?

Again the truth is only by the blood of Christ do we ever obtain the full assurance that the attonement has been made.

Blessing
If we take it upon our selves to

 

[Phil12123]

**Before I add my two cents to this thread, can someone please define “expiation” or “expiated”? Does it mean cleansed or removed? Or does it mean paid for?

Our sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7; Rev. 1:5) and paid for by His sacrifice on the cross (Matt. 20:28; 1 Tim 2:6; Heb. 10:10-14).

So, depending on the meaning of “expiating” I don’t understand what is left for the sinner to do after Christ has done His Work and the sinner had repented and believed in that Work.**

 

[LilyM]

**Before I add my two cents to this thread, can someone please define “expiation” or “expiated”? Does it mean cleansed or removed? Or does it mean paid for?

Our sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7; Rev. 1:5) and paid for by His sacrifice on the cross (Matt. 20:28; 1 Tim 2:6; Heb. 10:10-14).

So, depending on the meaning of “expiating” I don’t understand what is left for the sinner to do after Christ has done His Work and the sinner had repented and believed in that Work.**

Plenty left to do - Paul said ‘I complete in my own flesh what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings’. And Paul certainly knew what he was saying when he said that there is something lacking. What is lacking is that God requires our active co-operation in the process of atonement for sin just like He requires our acceptance of the saving work of Christ itself.

God isn’t the soft-touch elderly uncle who will give us whatever we want whenever we want and not expect us to do anything on our part. He is the wise parent who expects concrete things of us in return for His generosity. Works of mercy and charity for one thing.

Not to ‘earn’ our salvation, that is impossible, but because His forgiveness is only beneficial to us if it leads to amendment of life on our part, and part of that amendment of life is restitution of the wrong done. Repairing the broken window or at least giving something of equal value to that which was broken. And if that doesn’t happen on Earth we’ll be ‘thrown in jail’ in purgatory, as the Lord said, and not let out till the last penny has been paid (so obviousy it can’t be hell, which is eternal punishment).

 

[Linda_Marie]

I will give it another try. This is my first attempt at apologetics so please bear with me. Sometimes I do not express myself as clearly as I’d like.

If the neighbour can forgive us for broken windows and God forgives us, why do you think the window must be fixed?

If I don’t even attempt to fix my neighbour’s window, he will think that my repentance was phony, that I only said I was sorry to get out of the consequences. I have caused my neighbour an injury and when he asks me to fix his window, I just say, “I’m forgiven and that’s the end of the matter. Christ paid for your window on the Cross, so I don’t have to fix it. See the Man.” ? If my repentance is true, I will want, with all my heart, to fix that window. So yes, the window must be fixed

Of course there lies the rub so to speak. The sin does not remain on our souls.

True, the sin does not remain, but the stain does. Just as my neighbour forgave me the sin (breaking his window), he still has a broken window. He is still my friend, but he has a broken window. The effects of the sin, the broken window, the stain, still remains. To wash the stain from my soul and repair the friendship with my neighbour, I must try to make amends, ie - fix the window. If I don’t fix his window, he will start to re-evaluate our friendship. He will ask himself how I can be his friend if I will not fix the window I broke. God will ask how I can claim to be His friend, if I will not even try to make amends for the damage I have caused. Even if whatever I do falls short, my fervent desire to make it up, to repair the damage I caused moves God to grant me the grace, through His Sacrifice, to make up the balance.

Dying with stains on my soul from forgiven sins does not send me to Hell. Assuming I have no unforgiven, mortal sins when I die, I am still forgiven and am still saved. If I do nothing in this life on earth to clean these stains, to repair the damage that sin has caused to my relationship with God, they must still be cleansed before I can enter Heaven. Catholics call this “Purgatory”.

Purgatory is not eternal punishment. Purgatory is not damnation, it is not Hell. It is where we undergo our final purification before we can enter Heaven and stand in the Presence of God.

We can make an effort in this life to clean the stains from our souls. We can do this via Indulgences. The authority the Church exercises here was granted by Christ to the Church when He told the Apostles “Amen I say to you, Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 18:18) Indulgenced works serve to bring us closer to God. For instance, devout reading of Holy Scripture for 15 minutes is enriched with a partial indulgence while if you read for half an hour, a plenary indulgence is granted, under the normal conditions. Reading God’s Word brings us closer to Him, repairs the damage, the separation, that our sin caused. Our action, sinning, requires another action on our part to turn away from sin and make amends, both to the one we hurt, to ourselves, and to God. All actions and prayers which carry indulgences serve to focus our minds and hearts on God. In so doing, we are less and less inclined to sin again because our hearts and minds are fully focused on God. In this way, indulgences serve both to make amends and to repair the damage that sin has caused to our relationship with God as well as building us up in our spiritual life and in holiness.

 

[Vincent]

Before I add my two cents to this thread, can someone please define “expiation” or “expiated”? Does it mean cleansed or removed? Or does it mean paid for?

“Can we expiate our sins – and what does ‘expiate’ mean anyway?”, by Jimmy Akin

 

[zerocrossing]

did you really register just to troll? no catholic believes they are saved by works. please search the forums

and scborromeo.org/ccc.htm here for ‘grace’

Oh, wow. There’s a searchable online version of the CCC? The troll post was worth wading through just to find this link!

 

[Phil12123]

“Can we expiate our sins – and what does ‘expiate’ mean anyway?”, by Jimmy Akin

Thank you, Vincent, for the link. Let me digest that article. I think it will raise some questions that I would like to ask about it.

 

[unacanta]

If I don’t even attempt to fix my neighbor’s window, he will think that my repentance was phony, that I only said I was sorry to get out of the consequences. I have caused my neighbors an injury and when he asks me to fix his window, I just say, “I’m forgiven and that’s the end of the matter. Christ paid for your window on the Cross, so I don’t have to fix it. See the Man.” ? If my repentance is true, I will want, with all my heart, to fix that window. So yes, the window must be fixed

I as a child playing in the backyard have broken the neighbor’s window. He comes to the house and confronts me with it. My dad say, He will repay and fix the window. The neighbor says that is not good enough, demands my life, after all it is a very old and cherished window. My Father says, rather than deprive me of my life He will allow the neighbor to take His instead. The neighbor agrees and considers it a just action. Considering my Dad has given up His life for the window I broke and the neighbor agreed it was sufficient, do I now go and offer to mow his yard for a year? After all, I have observed my Father sweat and spit soaked, bleeding and beaten. It is really sad, because only my Father could actually see my heart and know if I was truly repentant. The neighbor, my mom, brothers and sisters, all can not see the rendering of my heart. Dad could though…He knew…maybe that is why He was willing to die for me.

True, the sin does not remain, but the stain does. Just as my neighbors forgave me the sin (breaking his window), he still has a broken window. He is still my friend, but he has a broken window. The effects of the sin, the broken window, the stain, still remains. To wash the stain from my soul and repair the friendship with my neighbors, I must try to make amends, ie - fix the window. If I don’t fix his window, he will start to re-evaluate our friendship. He will ask himself how I can be his friend if I will not fix the window I broke. God will ask how I can claim to be His friend, if I will not even try to make amends for the damage I have caused. Even if whatever I do falls short, my fervent desire to make it up, to repair the damage I caused moves God to grant me the grace, through His Sacrifice, to make up the balance.

We are redeemed by his blood and forgiven by His grace. When we talk about “fixing the window”, we are talking about fixing sin. It would be unusual that I would trespass against my neighbor and not God at the same time. Since we understand we are forgiven, we have to ask ourselves. Did Christ offer the proper propitiation for our transgression. The answer can only be yes.

We must understand that trying to fervently make up for our sins is of no avail. God grants us grace in spite of what we have done not because of what we have done or will do to provide recompense for our deeds. Whatever we do will always fall short to repair the damage of sin. That is why God sent his one and only begotten Son. He has been and always will be the perfect sacrifice. You are trying to “make up the balance” which is impossible. Either Christ’s works on the cross is sufficient or it is not. When we stand before the throne of God, we want to stand on His righteousness alone anything we try to add with our own “works” can only be repugnant in His eyes.

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Dying with stains on my soul from forgiven sins does not send me to Hell. Assuming I have no unforgiven, mortal sins when I die, I am still forgiven and am still saved. If I do nothing in this life on earth to clean these stains, to repair the damage that sin has caused to my relationship with God, they must still be cleansed before I can enter Heaven. Catholics call this “Purgatory”.

Purgatory is not eternal punishment. Purgatory is not damnation, it is not Hell. It is where we undergo our final purification before we can enter Heaven and stand in the Presence of God.

The whole idea of stains remaining once the sin is removed is contrary to the concept of grace. Christ’s death was more than forgiveness. It was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
1Jn2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Not only do we have forgiveness, the legal aspect of punishment has been removed by His propitiation.

Blessings,
Len

 

[Phil12123]

Amen!

 

[LilyM]

I as a child playing in the backyard have broken the neighbor’s window. He comes to the house and confronts me with it. My dad say, He will repay and fix the window. The neighbor says that is not good enough, demands my life, after all it is a very old and cherished window. My Father says, rather than deprive me of my life He will allow the neighbor to take His instead. The neighbor agrees and considers it a just action. Considering my Dad has given up His life for the window I broke and the neighbor agreed it was sufficient, do I now go and offer to mow his yard for a year? After all, I have observed my Father sweat and spit soaked, bleeding and beaten. It is really sad, because only my Father could actually see my heart and know if I was truly repentant. The neighbor, my mom, brothers and sisters, all can not see the rendering of my heart. Dad could though…He knew…maybe that is why He was willing to die for me.

We are redeemed by his blood and forgiven by His grace. When we talk about “fixing the window”, we are talking about fixing sin. It would be unusual that I would trespass against my neighbor and not God at the same time. Since we understand we are forgiven, we have to ask ourselves. Did Christ offer the proper propitiation for our transgression. The answer can only be yes.

We must understand that trying to fervently make up for our sins is of no avail. God grants us grace in spite of what we have done not because of what we have done or will do to provide recompense for our deeds. Whatever we do will always fall short to repair the damage of sin. That is why God sent his one and only begotten Son. He has been and always will be the perfect sacrifice. You are trying to “make up the balance” which is impossible. Either Christ’s works on the cross is sufficient or it is not. When we stand before the throne of God, we want to stand on His righteousness alone anything we try to add with our own “works” can only be repugnant in His eyes.

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

The whole idea of stains remaining once the sin is removed is contrary to the concept of grace. Christ’s death was more than forgiveness. It was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
1Jn2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Not only do we have forgiveness, the legal aspect of punishment has been removed by His propitiation.

Blessings,
Len

Christ doesn’t just call on us to accept His forgiveness passively though - He never did. His emphasis is always on ACTIVE repentance and ACTIVE co-operation with His redeeming work. Both John the Baptist and Jesus constantly speak of repentance - and not only in a passive sense.

Remember entry into heaven depends, at least partially, on what we DO for Jesus through the ‘least of these’. Failing to make some sort of restitution for our wrongs to them is a failure indeed in our duty to our brother.

That’s why His first response when asked what must be done to attain eternal life was ‘obey the commandments’. He went further and said ‘He who loves me will keep my commandments’.

That’s also why He spoke of loving God with our whole STRENGTH as well as heart mind and soul - love and salvation is a matter of actions speaking of a true conversion of heart and mind.

Finally, He also speaks of sinners being put into jail and not let out UNTIL they have ‘paid the last penny’ of the debt accrued through their sins. How is this in any way consistent with the idea that salvation and forgiveness are not at all related to our own actions of restitution?

 

[Linda_Marie]

No, No, No, the neighbour does not demand my death. He is a completely innocent party to all of this. I have brought death upon my self, I have killed myself by separating myself from God with the malice and spite that was in my heart when I chucked the ball through my neighbour’s window. The sin was the hatred for my neighbour. When I repent, I do not repent the broken window, I repent the hatred that made me break it. What Christ carried on the Cross was my hatred, He died for my hatred so that I won’t. It is the hatred that carries the death penalty. He did not pay for something so petty and material as the broken window. He paid my eternal punishment for the hatred which had brought me death. Now in repenting the malice and hatred towards my neighbour, and receiving Christ’s forgiveness, I am filled with remorse at how I have injured this innocent person. Now instead of feeling hatred for my neighbour, I am filled with love, through God’s Grace. I see my neighbour’s broken window which remains, even though Christ has saved me from death, removed the hatred from my heart and replaced it with love. I see how I have not treated my neighbour with Charity or Justice. I am now moved, by the Grace which I have received by having my sin forgiven, to fix the window. In this way I pay the temporal punishment due for my sin. I no longer eternally die for it – Christ paid for that, but I still have to pay the temporal price. In this case, it is to dig into my wallet and give my neighbour the money to get the window fixed. It is the only thing to do, if there is truly love now in my heart, where before there was hate.

What I see in your scenario is that the hatred for your neighbour still remains in your heart because you refuse to fix his window, smugly pointing to Jesus on the Cross and claiming that He paid for it. You imply that once you are forgiven, the window is miraculously fixed leaving no one to dig into their pockets and pay. You know this doesn’t happen. Windows do not get miraculously fixed. The consequences of your sin, the broken window, still remain. You stick your innocent neighbour with the bill to fix his window. Paying the repair bill is the earthly temporal punishment which is the result of your hatred, your sin, and you are demanding that the innocent injured party pay it, after Christ paid the price for your death which came to you through your hatred. You are demanding that your neighbour fork over the cash to get his window fixed, that he bear the earthly, temporal punishment due for your actions. He cannot present that bill to Christ and say, “Please deposit this amount of money in my account. My neighbour, who broke my window, said that You had paid for it to be fixed. I had to get a glazier in to do the job so here’s the bill.” Refusing to pay for the broken window to be fixed indicates a heart that has not turned, has not repented. It is obvious that you still hate your neighbour since you want him, who was innocent in all of this, to be the one to pay to have the window fixed. You thus injure your innocent neighbour yet again, with the malice and hatred still in your heart. This is not loving your neighbour. Charity and Justice, should now be living in your heart after your repentance, since Christ has put to death your hatred. By the absence of Charity and Justice in your heart, it can be seen that there is no repentance, that the eternal price has not been paid and you are not forgiven. Rather, hatred and malice remain in your heart as you gleefully squirm out of paying for the broken window and chuckle over how you have gotten out of having to pay for anything. In fact, in this scenario, it is also obvious that you have not forgiven your neighbour for whatever it was that that made you hate him enough to chuck a ball through his window.

32Then his lord summoned him and said to him, “You wicked slave! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not have had mercy on your fellow-slave, as I had mercy on you?” 34And in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he should pay his entire debt. 35So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister* from your heart.’
Matthew 18:32-34

 

[Phil12123]

Christ doesn’t just call on us to accept His forgiveness passively though - He never did. His emphasis is always on ACTIVE repentance and ACTIVE co-operation with His redeeming work. Both John the Baptist and Jesus constantly speak of repentance - and not only in a passive sense.

Remember entry into heaven depends, at least partially, on what we DO for Jesus through the ‘least of these’. Failing to make some sort of restitution for our wrongs to them is a failure indeed in our duty to our brother.

**Entry into heaven is a matter of repentance and faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary for one’s sins. It is a matter of receiving a gift—the gift of eternal life. All we can DO to receive a gift is to receive it. We certainly cannot do anything to deserve a gift, or it would be earned by that doing, and then no longer a gift.

However, what we do, our actions, do reveal what is in our hearts. So what we do to “the least of these” reveals our hearts toward them. So, it is correct that, once we repent of our sin of hating our neighbor and breaking his window, our heart is filled with remorse and shame that we did that, and a desire to offer to repair it or pay for it. I am not sure, though, how this analogy relates to “temporal punishment” for sins that are forgiven. How does our heart’s desire to make restitution relate to any sort of “punishment”?

Let’s say a person is guilty of a sin not involving any neighbor, but just God. No window. No restitution issue. Just, say, hating God or not loving Him with our whole heart, soul, strength, etc. Then we repent and accept Christ and His Work of redemption on our behalf. Are you saying in such a case there is still a “temporal punishment” to be suffered by the repentant believer that Christ Himself did not pay for?**

That’s why His first response when asked what must be done to attain eternal life was ‘obey the commandments’. He went further and said ‘He who loves me will keep my commandments’.

**No, His response to the rich young ruler (or whoever it was) regarding the commandments was a way of showing the person that he was a sinner in need of forgiveness. That is what the Law does—act as a schoolmaster, teaching us that we are sinners, to bring us to Christ, the One Who paid for that sin. **

Finally, He also speaks of sinners being put into jail and not let out UNTIL they have ‘paid the last penny’ of the debt accrued through their sins. How is this in any way consistent with the idea that salvation and forgiveness are not at all related to our own actions of restitution?

I think you have taken that passage out of context. Salvation and forgiveness are related only to our actions of repentance and faith, receiving them as free gifts, paid for in full by Christ at Calvary.

 

[unacanta]

Christ doesn’t just call on us to accept His forgiveness passively though - He never did. His emphasis is always on ACTIVE repentance and ACTIVE co-operation with His redeeming work. Both John the Baptist and Jesus constantly speak of repentance - and not only in a passive sense.

Remember entry into heaven depends, at least partially, on what we DO for Jesus through the ‘least of these’. Failing to make some sort of restitution for our wrongs to them is a failure indeed in our duty to our brother.

I humbly wish to disagree. If are entrance into heaven depends on anything other than grace be it partial or not, then the Spirit of Grace has been insulted. The Jews under the Mosaic Law tried for centuries to make restitution and it was of no avail. Repent means to changes ones thinking. Not change and make amends for past failures. We have no idea what God requires to make amends, it is only in our minds that we try. For Him, His death was propitiation enough to free us from sin.

That’s why His first response when asked what must be done to attain eternal life was ‘obey the commandments’. He went further and said ‘He who loves me will keep my commandments’.

Not at all. Here is what Jesus said that the works of God are:
Jn6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Jn6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Works of course being what we must “do” to enter Heaven.

If you remember He was speakig the young rich ruler whom He knew would not sell all of his possessions and follow Him. The young ruler was following the Law and according to the “Law”, those were the thing he needed to do to obtain eternal life. We are under the New Covenant and grace.

That’s also why He spoke of loving God with our whole STRENGTH as well as heart mind and soul - love and salvation is a matter of actions speaking of a true conversion of heart and mind.

The deeds done in rightouesness have nothing to do with our salvation:

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

I of course totally agree that our good deeds do reflect the work of the Holy Spirit within us. But is always by His leading and none of our own. It is His love reflecting out not ours.

Finally, He also speaks of sinners being put into jail and not let out UNTIL they have ‘paid the last penny’ of the debt accrued through their sins. How is this in any way consistent with the idea that salvation and forgiveness are not at all related to our own actions of restitution?

Mat5:25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

Jesus is making reference to a person not allowing themselves to be brought into court. He is saying is always better to settle the matter with the interdiction of a judge.

The Jewish Law required a person to be thrown into jail until the offended party was paid in full. God being the offended party was paid in full for our transgressions by His Son on the cross. After all:

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Blessings,
Len

 

[unacanta]

No, No, No, the neighbour does not demand my death. He is a completely innocent party to all of this. I have brought death upon my self, I have killed myself by separating myself from God with the malice and spite that was in my heart when I chucked the ball through my neighbour’s window. The sin was the hatred for my neighbour. When I repent, I do not repent the broken window, I repent the hatred that made me break it. What Christ carried on the Cross was my hatred, He died for my hatred so that I won’t. It is the hatred that carries the death penalty. He did not pay for something so petty and material as the broken window. He paid my eternal punishment for the hatred which had brought me death. Now in repenting the malice and hatred towards my neighbour, and receiving Christ’s forgiveness, I am filled with remorse at how I have injured this innocent person. Now instead of feeling hatred for my neighbour, I am filled with love, through God’s Grace. I see my neighbour’s broken window which remains, even though Christ has saved me from death, removed the hatred from my heart and replaced it with love. I see how I have not treated my neighbour with Charity or Justice. I am now moved, by the Grace which I have received by having my sin forgiven, to fix the window.

You are doing great until the next statement

In this way I pay the temporal punishment due for my sin. I no longer eternally die for it – Christ paid for that, but I still have to pay the temporal price. In this case, it is to dig into my wallet and give my neighbour the money to get the window fixed. It is the only thing to do, if there is truly love now in my heart, where before there was hate.

Punishment for any sin be it temporal or other has been paid, again:

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Now, is it a good thing to repair the neighbor’s window, Yes. Should we, Yes. Does the Holy Spirit lead us to fix it, probably so. Does fixing it pay for the sin, under no circumstances.

—The answer is too long to fit in one passage, see my next post to this one----