Indulgences for non-Catholics

[idiopathogen]

I also have a Catholic Bible here, a Douay Version … authorized by Pope Pius XII.

It says here on the first page:

a) The faithful who spend at least a quarter of an hour in reading the Holy Scriptures with the reverence due to the Word of God and after the manner of spiritual reading, may gain:
An indulgence of 3 years.
b) Those, however, who read at least a few verses of the Gospel and further kiss the book of the Gospels, devoutly reciting one of the following invocations: Through the Gospel’s words may our sins be blotted out – May the reading of the Gospel be our health and protection – May Christ, the Son of God, teach us the words of the Holy Gospel, are granted:
An indulgence of 500 days;

In what circumstances would I choose a) over b)? Doesn’t a) seem like a better choice, or is the pope here considering slower less capable readers that may need to settle for the second choice.

Do I still get credit if I am not a Catholic? Partial credit? Must I understand what I am reading, or is going through the process more important?

 

[idiopathogen]

Isn’t this a bit more motivating?

Holy Scriptures

 

[porthos11]

First and foremost about indulgences. We no longer attach specific days or years to indulgences because of the great confusion it caused.

I also have a Catholic Bible here, a Douay Version … authorized by Pope Pius XII.

It says here on the first page:

a) The faithful who spend at least a quarter of an hour in reading the Holy Scriptures with the reverence due to the Word of God and after the manner of spiritual reading, may gain:
An indulgence of 3 years.

Under the present disciplines, this this reading now gives a plenary indulgence, subject to the usual conditions.

b) Those, however, who read at least a few verses of the Gospel and further kiss the book of the Gospels, devoutly reciting one of the following invocations: Through the Gospel’s words may our sins be blotted out – May the reading of the Gospel be our health and protection – May Christ, the Son of God, teach us the words of the Holy Gospel, are granted:
An indulgence of 500 days;

This is now simply granted as a partial indulgence, without a specific number.

In what circumstances would I choose a) over b)? Doesn’t a) seem like a better choice, or is the pope here considering slower less capable readers that may need to settle for the second choice.

It’s up to the reader. Not everyone may be able to read for 30 minutes straight.

Do I still get credit if I am not a Catholic? Partial credit? Must I understand what I am reading, or is going through the process more important?

Indulgences fall under the Church’s power to bind and loose. If you’re not a Catholic, then by implication, you reject the Catholic Church’s ability to bind or loose you (which is what an indulgence does), and therefore, you may not be within the Church’s jurisdiction. However, we never presume to know how God can work outside the Church’s visible structures.

 

[idiopathogen]

Thanks. Are there only certain instances where the pope is infallible, and other instances where he makes sinful mistakes?

 

[porthos11]

Thanks. Are there only certain instances where the pope is infallible, and other instances where he makes sinful mistakes?

Infallibility is not and never equal to impeccability. The Pope sins just like every other man.

 

[LilyM]

Under the present disciplines, this this reading now gives a plenary indulgence, subject to the usual conditions.

No, the reading must be for at least half an hour to gain a plenary indulgence, not fifteen minutes as the older indulgence states.

And I think the reading is meant to be done for half-an-hour in one sitting. When one looks at the other plenary indulgences - eg the Rosary must be five decades said continuously, the Way of the Cross must be said before stations erected in a church and one must where possible move from station to station - it seems contrary to the spirit of plenary indulgences that something that is so very little effort as to read a mere few minutes of the Bible here and there during the day would suffice.

 

[porthos11]

No, the reading must be for at least half an hour to gain a plenary indulgence, not fifteen minutes as the older indulgence states.

And I think the reading is meant to be done for half-an-hour in one sitting. When one looks at the other plenary indulgences - eg the Rosary must be five decades said continuously, the Way of the Cross must be said before stations erected in a church and one must where possible move from station to station - it seems contrary to the spirit of plenary indulgences that something that is so very little effort as to read a mere few minutes of the Bible here and there during the day would suffice.

oops. Sorry; you are correct. I did mean half-hour but I failed to see the “quarter-hour” in the OP.

 

[idiopathogen]

Do illiterate people get to burn longer then? Are there picture bibles for illiterates? What about the blind that haven’t learned brail?

Is it difficult to address God as “Father” while believing in purgatory, or does Father take a whole different meaning with God?

 

[averheyen]

Do illiterate people get to burn longer then? Are there picture bibles for illiterates? What about the blind that haven’t learned brail?

Is it difficult to address God as “Father” while believing in purgatory, or does Father take a whole different meaning with God?

I don’t think that’s the issue here.

 

[jmcrae]

Do illiterate people get to burn longer then?

The illiterate can pray the Rosary or do the Stations of the Cross to receive the same Indulgences.

Are there picture bibles for illiterates?

In the old days, we called them “Catholic Churches.” People could walk in and be surrounded by images and symbols portraying every important event in Scripture and Church history.

(Today, not so much. Modern Catholic churches seem to obscure the message a lot more, for whatever reason. Perhaps to seem more Protestant?)

What about the blind that haven’t learned brail?

They can come to Mass and say their prayers devoutly, they can pray the Rosary, and they can participate in the singing of the Liturgy of the Hours.

Is it difficult to address God as “Father” while believing in purgatory, or does Father take a whole different meaning with God?

A good father disciplines his children. That’s somewhere in the Book of Proverbs. It’s also somewhere in the New Testament that, he whom the Father loves, He chastens.

 

[porthos11]

Do illiterate people get to burn longer then? Are there picture bibles for illiterates? What about the blind that haven’t learned brail?

There are many, many other things that can be done that gain indulgences. The Rosary, Eucharistic adoration, all carry plenary indulgences without requiring anyone to read anything.

Is it difficult to address God as “Father” while believing in purgatory, or does Father take a whole different meaning with God?

Absolutely not. A good Father disciplines his children. Purgatory is a doctrine of God’s mercy.

 

[idiopathogen]

Indulgences, among other things, is one of the sad results of having the Church’s aims be primarily selfish man-centered, salvation-centered. The purpose of God is not the salvation of man, but the glory of Christ. Eph 1:10, John 17. Salvation is secondary, and if the means of salvation robs Christ of His glory, it should be called into question.

You can’t expect non-catholics that love the Scriptures to not be repulsed by the Catholic authorities claiming that reading and kissing paper for the purpose of obtaining God’s favor is a good idea. Even an unbeliever can see how shameful and irrational that is.

“For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.” Romans 2:24.

 

[LilyM]

Indulgences, among other things, is one of the sad results of having the Church’s aims be primarily selfish man-centered, salvation-centered. The purpose of God is not the salvation of man, but the glory of Christ. Eph 1:10, John 17. Salvation is secondary, and if the means of salvation robs Christ of His glory, it should be called into question.

You can’t expect non-catholics that love the Scriptures to not be repulsed by the Catholic authorities claiming that reading and kissing paper for the purpose of obtaining God’s favor is a good idea. Even an unbeliever can see how shameful and irrational that is.

“For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.” Romans 2:24.

How is it shameful and irrational? We don’t read the paper or kiss it for its own sake - we see nothing special about the physical object. We read and kiss it (show it respect) because it IS God’s own scriptural word, we value it for His sake, as you might read and kiss a letter from a beloved family member for the sake of the love you have for them. It’s called love, and the things we do when in love aren’t always strictly rational, you know, but they’re not shameful for all that.

As for the motive for indulgences being selfishness, I beg to differ. I don’t think I’ve ever tried to gain any indulgence for myself, but always simply for the benefit of whichever soul God wishes it to benefit.

And scripture states clearly that God DOES will to benefit and save us all, Jesus died for the purpose. So it’s beyond me why we shouldn’t be thinking of salvation, as well as giving glory to God at the same time, as we always do when we pray, read scripture and so on.

Now I don’t seek indulgences even for my own deceased friends or relatives, but purely for whoever God may will it to help, and He does will to help ALL men to salvation. How is that selfish or contrary to His will?

 

[idiopathogen]

You don’t know the Father.

“And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” Luke 15:20

I can’t find purgatory in Hebrews 12 or Proverbs. I can’t find it anywhere. I find my works being manifested and judged in 1 Cor 3, and suffering loss as a result. Fire is always a symbol of God’s judgement, His “strange work,” (Isa 28:21), never compassion. In eternal punishment, such fire never ends, “is not quenched,” (the gospels, esp Matthew) and the “smoke of their torment asended forever and ever.” (rev)

One of the nice things about submitting to scripture is scripture is always consistent with itself. Catholicism is confusing and inconsistent. The scope of each verse is changed based on catholic teaching, rather than the whole of Scripture, or the context in which it found. Lack of clarity within any verse should be seen as a lack of familiarity with the rest of Scripture, and lack of obedience on the part of teachers (John 7:17, Eph 4).

2 Peter 1:20
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” - kjv
“knowing this first, that [the scope of] no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation” -jnd

James 3:17.

 

[jmcrae]

You don’t know the Father.

“And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” Luke 15:20

I can’t find purgatory in Hebrews 12 or Proverbs. I can’t find it anywhere. I find my works being manifested and judged in 1 Cor 3, and suffering loss as a result.

Do you think that your “works” are something outside of your inward self? No - rather, it is the dross that has accumulated onto your personality - the music you listened to that caused a certain attitude toward sex; the classes you skipped that lessened your understanding of the world - that will be burned away. Not some physical thing outside yourself. You’re not going to be watching your works burn up; you’re going to be feeling them burn.

Fire is always a symbol of God’s judgement, His “strange work,” (Isa 28:21), never compassion. In eternal punishment, such fire never ends, “is not quenched,” (the gospels, esp Matthew) and the “smoke of their torment asended forever and ever.” (rev)

But the burning up of “works” (that is, those parts of your self that were damaged by your sins) isn’t going to be eternal. It ends when all of your bad works are gone. But it’s still going to be a very painful process, for you. There will be a lot of “letting go.”

 

[porthos11]

You’re smooth, I’ll give you that. You cleverly start off with a seemingly innocent question and then attack.

But of course, people were already aware of that.

You don’t know the Father.

“And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” Luke 15:20

Oh, we do know the Father all right.

“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

The thing about us is that we don’t pick only verses that are comfortable for us. We are not afraid to take everything. God is merciful but he is also just.

I can’t find purgatory in Hebrews 12 or Proverbs. I can’t find it anywhere. I find my works being manifested and judged in 1 Cor 3, and suffering loss as a result. Fire is always a symbol of God’s judgement, His “strange work,” (Isa 28:21), never compassion.

Then you will have to move your nose to see clearly the cleansing fire in v15. The man will clearly suffer loss on the Day (which is, of course, post-mortem) and will receive his salvation but as through fire, which, as you say, is a symbol of judgment. No one in heaven suffers loss, and no one in hell is saved.

In eternal punishment, such fire never ends, “is not quenched,” (the gospels, esp Matthew) and the “smoke of their torment asended forever and ever.” (rev)

That’s hell, not purgatory.

One of the nice things about submitting to scripture is scripture is always consistent with itself. Catholicism is confusing and inconsistent. The scope of each verse is changed based on catholic teaching, rather than the whole of Scripture, or the context in which it found. Lack of clarity within any verse should be seen as a lack of familiarity with the rest of Scripture, and lack of obedience on the part of teachers (John 7:17, Eph 4).

Nope, we don’t pick and choose verses. Protestants are more guilty of that. While some theologians can and do take liberties, and that’s true for all Christians, not just Catholics, ultimately, we do not have a problem because we do not subscribe to the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

But since you bring it up, why should we submit to Scripture at all in the first place? Why should anyone, for that matter?

 

[porthos11]

Indulgences, among other things, is one of the sad results of having the Church’s aims be primarily selfish man-centered, salvation-centered. The purpose of God is not the salvation of man, but the glory of Christ. Eph 1:10, John 17. Salvation is secondary, and if the means of salvation robs Christ of His glory, it should be called into question.

How wrong you are. Christ already has had total glory and he never needed anything else. He willingly laid down that glory temporarily precisely to save us. To relegate salvation to “secondary” insults Christ and his Cross. He did not die for something “secondary”. He did not die for himself.

You can’t expect non-catholics that love the Scriptures to not be repulsed by the Catholic authorities claiming that reading and kissing paper for the purpose of obtaining God’s favor is a good idea. Even an unbeliever can see how shameful and irrational that is.

There is absolutely nothing irrational about loving the Scriptures and reading it with the reverence due God’s Word. And absolutely no one can demand God’s favor. But God has declared that he will honor what his Church binds, in the graciousness of his will, and that we can trust it because he said it.

 

[idiopathogen]

There’s nothing technically incorrect about your analysis of 1 Cor 3, and suffering that will accompany that event, but it is the judgment seat of Christ.

It is interesting that in every case in the new testament where a person is judged BY their works, they are cast into hell. When the believer is judged, his works are judged. Ever noticed that, or have some scripture that would suggest otherwise?

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Romans 14:10,11.

I’m going to start a new thread. You guys are great sports and really knowledgeable. At times I may be ribbing you, but I have a great deal of respect for your convictions compared to most Protestants that just act like these things don’t matter.

We’re all only here a very short time in light of eternity. These things ARE important. Where you and I are wrong, we can be rebuked and chastened by the Lord, but what can be done for those that are lukewarm and don’t care? See the end of Revelation 3 to see what I mean. That is the last and final state of the Church, and pray that it will characterize none of us.

~Peter

 

[idiopathogen]

But since you bring it up, why should we submit to Scripture at all in the first place? Why should anyone, for that matter?

To glorify God by having the features of Christ (or fruit) displayed in us to the world (John 15:5,8), to obtain salvation (John 15:6) also, “search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life,” “these things are written that YE MAY KNOW ye have eternal life,” to have our prayers answered, (John 15:7), to have joy and happiness (John 15:11), to enjoy communion/relationship with the Lord for choosing us in the first place, and not merely servitude (John 15:15, 16)

A good summary of chapter 15 follows here:

Things that should characterize the Christian Company in Christ’s Absence (John 15).

vs 1-8: The Moral Graces of Christ
9-10: The Love of Christ
11-12: The Joy of Christ
13-17: The Friendship of Christ
18-27: The Reproach of Christ

The person that I got that from does not kiss his Bible, at least not to my knowledge, not that knowledge without devotion is a good thing, but devotion without knowledge, if it is intentional is scary.

As St. Peter says, "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. "

~Peter

 

[idiopathogen]

How wrong you are. Christ already has had total glory and he never needed anything else. He willingly laid down that glory temporarily precisely to save us. To relegate salvation to “secondary” insults Christ and his Cross. He did not die for something “secondary”. He did not die for himself.

There is absolutely nothing irrational about loving the Scriptures and reading it with the reverence due God’s Word. And absolutely no one can demand God’s favor. But God has declared that he will honor what his Church binds, in the graciousness of his will, and that we can trust it because he said it.

Do you have a reference for Christ “laying down His glory?” I can think of a couple of him “laying down his life,” but never His glory. The cross gave God great glory displaying perfect righteousness and love at the same time.

Christ’s High Priestly prayer in John 17 was in preparation for that moment of glory.