Indulgences In The Bible An Church Fathers

[TriuneUnity]

Greetings to you, too, Matt. Missed ya, dude. One of the brightest, most thoughtful Lutherans I’ve ever met. you give Lutheranism a good name!

Haha! Thanks, gurney You’re one of the…hmm…best, hmm former Anglicans I’ve ever met? (Then again, what’s the difference between Catholicism and Anglicanism? Well, other than women pastors, gay pastors, liberal theology, and a schismatic world body? hahaha)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s a lot of “hhmms” in one paragraph!

Haha! Thanks, gurney You’re one of the…hmm…best, hmm former Anglicans I’ve ever met? (Then again, what’s the difference between Catholicism and Anglicanism? Well, other than women pastors, gay pastors, liberal theology, and a schismatic world body? hahaha)

 

[RuthErickson]

I started reading my Manual Of Indulgence last night. It looks like to me that God grants an indulgence and not the church sometimes. As a protestant we are taught to pray and read the Bible to keep our salvation. Indulgences don’t look much differanant. I don’t understand " the treasuray of the saints". How does their works have anything to do with indulgences? Thank you for answering my questions. I have been studing Catholicism for a few years now and it is helpfull to get answers form people who are Catholic and not Protestants that think they know what they are talking about.

 

[crazzeto]

I started reading my Manual Of Indulgence last night. It looks like to me that God grants an indulgence and not the church sometimes. As a protestant we are taught to pray and read the Bible to keep our salvation. Indulgences don’t look much differanant. I don’t understand " the treasuray of the saints". How does their works have anything to do with indulgences? Thank you for answering my questions. I have been studing Catholicism for a few years now and it is helpfull to get answers form people who are Catholic and not Protestants that think they know what they are talking about.

Unless you’re referring to “the treasuray of saints” as a book title, then I’m lost… I’ve never heard of this as a theological concept, there is the communion of saints, which expresses the idea that we are all connected as we are all members of Christ’s body.

Then there is something known as the “deposit of faith”, which is comprised of the Bible + Sacred Scripture. If you’re referring to “treasuray of saints” as a theology, then it almost sounds like an amalgam of these two idea’s.

 

[crazzeto]

The idea of indulgences has always been something which baffled me. When I actually learned what they were (as opposed to what I had thought, as a protestant they were) they became less “bad” (If that’s the proper word), but they still troubled me. I remember walking into the Church of St. Paul in Antioch and seeing a big sign announcing that some Pope (I think one of the Paul’s) had declared an indulgence for anyone who visited the site. It actually cheapened it in my view.

Indulgences pay of the temporal penalty for sin, nothing more nothing less. More over, you can’t personally receive it if you haven’t already been absolved of sin. Though if you do something to merit one, and you don’t need or can’t have it, I’m sure God makes good use of it.

I wouldn’t let indulgences cheapen anything for you, think of them as extra encouragement to do what we should be doing as Christians.

 

[TheosisM]

Unless you’re referring to “the treasuray of saints” as a book title, then I’m lost… I’ve never heard of this as a theological concept, there is the communion of saints, which expresses the idea that we are all connected as we are all members of Christ’s body.

Then there is something known as the “deposit of faith”, which is comprised of the Bible + Sacred Scripture. If you’re referring to “treasuray of saints” as a theology, then it almost sounds like an amalgam of these two idea’s.

She most likely means the “treasury of merits”, of which indulgences draw from:

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.

 

[chrisb]

As I recall, in the very early Church, there existed two temporal punishments… 40 Days and 7 Years Penances. Indulgences was a ‘means’ of forgiving these punishments which the early Church placed upon those who sinned grievously.

 

[Jon_Hus]

… Staupitz commented how Luther had an excessively introspective, overly-analytical mind so he stuck Luther in academe to keep him busy. I think so many people forget that men like Wycliffe were around before Luther teaching Justification through Faith alone and translating Scripture and preaching a different approach to Christianity. Luther didn’t invent the whole kit and kaboodle, he just had the guts to take it a step further and take on Rome. There would’ve been a Reformation sooner or later from someone if Luther hadn’t done it. The rise of nation-states, political independence, greed from nobility and monarchs, and the independent spirit of the age was rife with rebellion and the reformation was a given IMO.

Well said gurneyhalleck1. I would have added the overreaching of the church into the everyday lives of men, the advent of the printing press, increased education, the availibility of primary greek manuscripts of the Scriptures and writings of the early church fathers, to name just a few more.

Would you agree with me that Staupitz was of the same mind as Luther and kind of guided him in the direction he (Luther) took?

 

[Nine_Two]

Indulgences pay of the temporal penalty for sin, nothing more nothing less. More over, you can’t personally receive it if you haven’t already been absolved of sin. Though if you do something to merit one, and you don’t need or can’t have it, I’m sure God makes good use of it.

I wouldn’t let indulgences cheapen anything for you, think of them as extra encouragement to do what we should be doing as Christians.

As I said, I know what they are. The idea is still something which I find repulsive, just not nearly as repulsive as the standard protestant understanding of indulgences (a license to sin, so to speak).

 

[crazzeto]

As I said, I know what they are. The idea is still something which I find repulsive, just not nearly as repulsive as the standard protestant understanding of indulgences (a license to sin, so to speak).

Huh, do you also have issues with temporal punishment for sins? I understand the Orthodox do in fact have an understanding of this, even if more recently theologists have modified their views on the after life.

 

[Nine_Two]

Huh, do you also have issues with temporal punishment for sins? I understand the Orthodox do in fact have an understanding of this, even if more recently theologists have modified their views on the after life.

Individuals have views, the Church itself says nothing.

However even granting that I accepted what was basically purgatory, it’s still a far stretch from there to believing a bishop can get me out of some of that punishment off the good deeds of a saint. My understanding of the faith is that deeds are non-transferable.

 

[crazzeto]

Individuals have views, the Church itself says nothing.

However even granting that I accepted what was basically purgatory, it’s still a far stretch from there to believing a bishop can get me out of some of that punishment off the good deeds of a saint. My understanding of the faith is that deeds are non-transferable.

Really? So the Orthodox Church lacks a teaching on redemptive suffering? That’s the basic principal behind the Gosples, at the most base level:

Christ suffering and dieing on the Cross, redeemed the world.

Since we are members of the body of Christ, our suffering (and deeds) can be used to aid others. It’s very natural in Christian theology.

Here’s something from a Serbian Orthodox church in Eugene Oragon (apparently)
westsrbdio.org/latest_news/Fall2009/eugene/eugene_feast_of_the_life_giving_cross.html

a catholic resource outlying scripture references for suffering:
scripturecatholic.com/suffering.html

From the CCC regarding suffering:

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”, for “Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m not sure what that has to do with the matter of indulgences.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m not sure what that has to do with the matter of indulgences.

Well for starts, indulgences first started with the martyrs durring the persecutions. They would offer up their sufferings durring martyrdom to pay for the temporal punishment of the sins of other Christians.

The Church (East and West) in their wisdom has applied this in such a way as to encourage Christians to undertale pious actions. Including reading the bible, visiting the holy land (originally to do the stations of the cross, you had to), and other such things.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Ruth,

Where in the Bible does it talk about indulgences? where in the writings or teachings of the Early Church Fathers do they talk about indulgences? Thank you for your answers. I am studying Catholicism for a few years now and this doctrine confuses me a lot? I am trying to understand it. Thank

My own personal reflection on Scripture leads me to believe that the doctrine of indulgences can be based on three particular Scriptures:
(1) The parable of the talents - Matthew 25:14-30. The basic principle is that to those who have, more will be given. This can apply to the Latin Catholic Church’s teaching on merits.
(2) The unity of the body of Christ -I Corinthians 12:14-26. Here, St. Paul teaches we are to share in each other’s joys and sufferings. Are not those who have passed on still members of the Church? If not, why can we not share the blessings of our merits with them?
(3) Vicarious suffering by the Church for the Church -Colossians 1:24. St. Paul lays down the principle that one’s suffering can be of benefit to the Church. St. Paul’s comparison of his suffering to the Lord’s own in this verse seems to assign something more than a merely earthly merit to the value of Christian suffering…

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Linda_Marie]

For those who haven’t bought it:

Norms for Indulgences (3rd Edition) (Prot. 0)
May 18, 1986

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/DocumentIndex/547

In part IV. The Grants, many Scripture references are given.

In the time of Luther, monetary donations to the Church were indulgenced, particularly when they were raising funds to build a cathedral. This practice opened itself to corruption and the appearance of selling indulgences. The rich could afford to give a large donation to the Church and ‘get out’ of having to perform their penances. Moreover, a few priests were skimming, pocketing some of the donations for themselves.

Once it became apparent that this was happening, the Church put a stop to it. Monetary donations are no longer indulgenced as a result.

There are conditions for gaining indulgences.
Norm 23:

Beside the exclusion of all attachment to sin, even venial sin, the requirements for gaining a plenary indulgence are the performance of the indulgenced work and fulfillment of three conditions: sacramental confession, eucharistic communion, and prayer for the pope’s intentions.
Several plenary indulgences may be gained on the basis of a single sacramental confession; only one may be gained, however, on the basis of a single eucharistic communion and prayer for the pope’s intentions.

You can find the Holy Father’s Intentions here: apostleshipofprayer.org/english2010.html

Just visiting a site will not gain you the indulgence. Just walking through the Holy Door during the Jubilee Year, would not gain one the indulgence. All the other conditions must be met as well.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t know, Jon. It seemed that Staupitz more than anything wanted Luther to cease the constant mental torment of overthinking his sins and turning inward. He counselled Luther to throw himself on God’s mercy and trust more in it. I don’t think that makes him a sola gracia type, just a good Catholic confessor. Some penitents get so hung up on their sins that they let the sin define them. I’ve had my priests tell me sometimes, “you’re letting this sin define you. You’re a good man and have such faith and do so many good things, have so many facets, trust in Christ, be sorry for your sins but don’t look back constantly and have them as a monkey on your back.” I think that was Staupitz. He was almost Socratic with Luther in trying to let Luther find himself. I’m not sure he wanted Luther to go down that road. He definitely didn’t approve of the Reformation and said it publically and in writing. He stayed a loyal son of the church. When he released Luther it was like he did a two-fold act: seperate his order from the scandal and drama of Luther’s movement and also give Luther the freedom to express himself on his own. I think he always respected Luther. I think all along Staupitz was more disgusted with clerical abuse and corruption than with indulgences themselves. That’s just my take on it…for what it’s worth…

Well said gurneyhalleck1. I would have added the overreaching of the church into the everyday lives of men, the advent of the printing press, increased education, the availibility of primary greek manuscripts of the Scriptures and writings of the early church fathers, to name just a few more.

Would you agree with me that Staupitz was of the same mind as Luther and kind of guided him in the direction he (Luther) took?

 

[Zooey]

As I recall, in the very early Church, there existed two temporal punishments… 40 Days and 7 Years Penances. Indulgences was a ‘means’ of forgiving these punishments which the early Church placed upon those who sinned grievously.

OK, that’s what I was thinking about, trying to remember…Thanks!!

 

[Linda_Marie]

That was why indulgences used to have a period of hours/days/weeks/years attached to them. The Early Church took penance very seriously. Indulgences were gained to replace the penitential period. Certain spiritual practices designed to turn our hearts back to God, were permitted, under the usual conditions, as a substitute for time spent in fasting, abstaining from meat, or whatever other penance had been laid upon them by their confessor.

Here Archbishop Fulton Sheen on Confession, Penance and Indulgences
fultonsheen.com/Fulton-Sheen-articles/The-Sacrament-of-Penance—III.cfm?artid=28

That brings up the question of “days.” One often hears of the indulgence of “forty days,” “one hundred days,” or “forty years.” The Church has to have some standard of measurement, and “days” and “years” are merely approximations. In the first several centuries of the Church, penances were very severe for certain public sins. One might have to dress himself in sackcloth and ashes and beg at a church door for forty days, or three years, or seven years, or sometimes ten years in the case of atrocious crimes. Because these sins gave grave scandal to the public, the penitent would be permitted to assist at the Mass at the door or in a special part of the Church.

staycatholic.com/indulgences.htm

The use of indulgences goes back to the early days of the Church and is firmly based on scriptural principals. The Bible clearly teaches that some punishments are eternal (lasting forever), and others are temporal (lasting for only a time). Indulgences are granted for the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin.

One example in the Bible of temporal punishment is that of King David. When he was found guilty of murder and adultery, he repented and was forgiven by God (2 Samuel 12:1-18). Although God forgave him, He still punished him with, among other things, the death of his son.

That temporal punishment is satisfied in Purgatory is a necessity of Scripture. We know from 1 John 5:17, that all sins are not mortal (depriving us of eternal life). We also know that we must account for every sin. Ecclesiastes 12:14 says: “God will bring every deed into judgment.” And In Matthew 12:36-37 Jesus says: “On the Day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter.” How would someone who died with non mortal sins account “for every careless word?” Purgatory is the only possible answer.

The Church has always taught that temporal punishment is required in this life or in Purgatory to heal the wounds of sin and prepare us for eternal happiness with God. Pope Paul VI speaks of that dual role in his “Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences:” “The aim pursued by ecclesiastical authority [The Church] in granting indulgences is not only that of helping the faithful to expiate the punishment due sin but also that of urging them to perform works of piety, penance and charity – particularly those which lead to growth in faith and which favor the common good” (4:8). The Bible itself encourages such behavior.

cathcorn.org/foof/27.html

That our Lord has given to the Church the power of granting Indulgences is clearly deduced from the Sacred Text. To the Prince of the Apostles He said: “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.”[Matt. xvi. 19.] And to all the Apostles assembled together He made the same solemn declaration.[Ibid., xviii. 18.] By these words our Savior empowered His Church to deliver her children (if properly disposed) from every obstacle that might retard them from the Kingdom of Heaven. Now there are two impediments that withhold a man from the heavenly kingdom–sin and the temporal punishment incurred by it. And the Church having power to remit the greater obstacle, which is sin, has power also to remove the smaller obstacle, which is the temporal punishment due on account of it.

The prerogative of granting Indulgence has been exercised by the teachers of the Church from the beginning of her existence.

St. Paul exercised it in behalf of the incestuous Corinthian whom he had condemned to a severe penance proportioned to his guilt, “that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.”* And having learned afterwards of the Corinthian’s fervent contrition the Apostle absolves him from the penance which he had imposed: “To him, that is such a one, this rebuke is sufficient, which is given by many. So that contrariwise you should rather pardon and comfort him, lest, perhaps, such a one be swallowed up with over-much sorrow. … And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ.”[II Cor. ii. 6-10.]*

The ECF on Purgatory
holysoulscrusade.org/early-fathers.html

The Church Fathers on Confession and Penance

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

“indulgences” simply put; IF you believe Jesus suffered,was crucified, died and was buried, resurrected from the dead after 3 days? From this action one is saved from eternal damnation, then you believe in “Indulgences”.

IF you believe in praying for a love one who is ill or on a death bed, through the sacrament of extreme unction “anointing of the sick” then faith in indulgence is not that far, because confession, penance, almsgiving, prayer, fasting are all intertwined with the salvation work of Jesus Christ from forgiveness.

Now comes the difficulty; Indulgences are not for the unbelievers. Baptism brings the unbeliever into the Kingdom of God. Indulgences are for the believers, who have already been forgiven from their confessed mortal sins.

An indulgence removes either partial or all (plenary) temporal punishment due to sin. Indulgences can be applied to both the living believer and the deceased believer. Let me explain.

If one would allow me here; I will attempt to simplify it by a laymans example.
Consider a beautiful calm pond, which represents the World. If you throw a stone in the middle of the pond it breaks the perfection of the peace, the stone represents ones sin. The splash lasts a little while because the sin was confessed and forgiven. What follows from your sin in society can affect many others unknowingly, this effect (temporal punishment) are represented in the ripple effect from your sin in the world. Yes, God has forgiven you of your confessed sin. But the ripple that you have no control of from your sin, due to the natural laws of punishment are still in motion. Indulgences become a short bank to cease the ripple partially, or totally.

You see, when King David sinned, God forgave King David after he confessed his sin. But the waves of punishment from the natural law still remained, thus his first son died.

Thank God for Jesus blood, this temporal punishment can be removed from an indulgence. Without the blood of Jesus Christ, and his authority he placed in his Church by giving her the Keys of God’s Kingdom on earth, with the power to forgive sins, and bind and loose. Indulgence for the Saints, Martyrs, and believers is very biblical and an ancient practice.

Just because God has forgiven our confessed sins, doesn’t mean that our sin in the world did not or could not affect others unknowingly. Indulgences removes all doubt.

The world needs to excercise this gift from God in indulgences.

Peace be with you