Indulgences, penance, earthly punishment

[hopeful.sinner]

So after a lot of searching around I think I have a grasp on the difference between penance and indulgence. I still have some questions though, let me illustrate with an example:

Meet Bob. Bob hasn’t done too well in life and is now jealous of those who have. So he regularly commits the sin of theft. He feels guilty about it though so he (1) goes to confession. He also hears that the Pope just granted the ability to obtain a plenary indulgence so (2) he fulfills (attempts to at least) the requirements of the plenary indulgence. But it’s not long before he slips up again, he sees someone walking by with a fancy new phone and he just can’t help himself, but this time he is caught by the police, arrested, tried and (3) spends some time in jail.

Now, as I understand it: (1) would gain forgiveness from God. (2) Would reduce the time spent in purgatory and (3) has absolutely nothing to do with God and is secular justice applied to believers and non-believers alike.

putting it crudely: (1) and (2) may be classified as “spiritual” punishments and (3) as “material” or “worldly” punishments.

For sins that are not punished legally, there are other punishments of the third kind; for example extreme sloth and gluttony will deteriorate your health, self confidence etc. Excessive consumption of pornography will deteriorate your relationships, and so on.

If this is correct, the “fix” of the material punishments lies also - solely - in material things? I am thinking exercise for the slothful, psychotherapy or medication for the (lust, drug, gambling) addict. I am not talking about avoiding these sins, of course there God and heaven provide us with what we need. I am talking about once the sin is committed, the “material punishment” requires a “material solution”.

I hope that all made sense!

 

[poche]

In the case of theft restitution must be made. Many times if restitution is not made then the soul remains in Purgatory until that restitution is made.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Material punishment” other than restitution is not a Catholic concern. Material punishment might or might not happen. There are people who live a very unhealthy lifestyle with drugs, etc who, for whatever reason, manage to have reasonably comfortable lives and live to a relatively old age. There are people who commit crimes and are not prosecuted for them, or are acquitted when they are actually guilty, or who get off with a very light punishment.

You seem to think that every worldly sin is going to carry a worldly secular punishment of some sort. The world isn’t a totally fair place and sometimes there isn’t such a punishment.

Whether the person gets such a punishment or not, God’s punishment is more concerned with a person’s state of mind. If a person is truly repentant then they are expected to make material restitution in cases where they can do so; for example, if you stole something you’d be expected to give it back if possible, and if not possible to do what you could for restitution, such as donate as much as you could to charity, or work off the debt, or serve time in prison with a repentant heart, etc.

 

[dscath]

Many times if restitution is not made then the soul remains in Purgatory until that restitution is made.

How does this work? Material restitution for theft cannot be made after death, so if I follow you logic with that belief, a thief who did not make restitution before death will remain in Purgatory until the final judgement. If we accept that premise, no need to pray for the souls of thieves in Purgatory, in an effort to ask God’s mercy in allowing them to transition from the Church Expectant to the Church Triumphant until the end of the age.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

How does this work?

Baptism makes us pure. Freshly baptized… babies or adults… have to make no restitution. It is only after we have found Christ and received Holy Spirit in Baptism that we have to make restitution. Because we were called to be Perfect as our Father is, and we have failed at that.

Thief on the Cross had baptism of desire- he started believing at the time and wanted to become Christ’s follower despite knowing he is not worthy.

 

[dscath]

I think you may have confused my comment for another…I was not speaking about Baptism, I was responding to the claim made that without restitution for thievery before physical death, a person was destined to remain in purgatory.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I think you may have confused my comment for another…I was not speaking about Baptism, I was responding to the claim made that without restitution for thievery before physical death, a person was destined to remain in purgatory.

I am saying that we make restitution only for sins after baptism. Baptism of desire counts as baptism if we die before real baptism… and baptism of blood even more so. In other words, we accumulate things we need to pay restitution for… and baptism resets that to 0.

 

[Genesis315]

“Earthly punishment” like a jail term could make satisfaction for one’s sins, thereby reducing the need for purgatory. That’s one of the main purposes of it.

From Catechism (my bolding):

2266…Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation.

Making satisfaction–or as the scriptures put it, “bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance” or “doing deeds worthy of repentance”–is necessary element element of repentance. It is how we “expiate” our sins. Bearing one’s just punishment willingly is good example of such a fruit or deed.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Earthly punishment” like a jail term could make satisfaction for one’s sins, thereby reducing the need for purgatory. That’s one of the main purposes of it.

It could, but again, only if the person’s heart is repentant. As your post says, they would need to accept guilt and willingly accept their punishment.

If someone is in prison complaining the whole time that they don’t belong there and feeling perfectly okay about what they did, then their lack of repentance and bad attitude is going to make that not count for anything. If they were to suddenly repent of their sin on their deathbed, I’m not sure that God would count all their badly served time as removing temporal punishment, but that’s up to God to decide.

 

[poche]

Someone else will have to make the restitution for him.