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Alexius
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I didn’t suggest they were, but others did. That’s why I’m confused. I thought these teachings and terms were firm…I still do, but some people seem to think Rome no longer uses these terms…
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dvdjs
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I probably don’t really understand the OP; ditto on most of the responses.
If one actually wants to know something about the Latin theology that is being asked about and talked about, here’s a link to INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences, Pope Paul VI:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM
Here are some remarks on indulgences and related concepts by a thoughtful Eastern Catholic monk, at the Anastasis Dialogue of Hieromonk Maximos:
hrm.ductape.net/blog/
Nice hook:
“If indulgences were to be abolished tomorrow, I would not mourn. But I would be worried.”
p.s. I have never heard any genuine authority in the Ruthenian Catholic Church arguing, as Mickey wrote, that “that we are not held to believe in indulgences”, whatever that might mean. AFAIK the Uniontown Odpust still carries an indulgence.
Here’s a link to a decent discussion of indulgences over at byzcath: byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/223955/fpart/1
If one actually wants to know something about the Latin theology that is being asked about and talked about, here’s a link to INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences, Pope Paul VI:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM
Here are some remarks on indulgences and related concepts by a thoughtful Eastern Catholic monk, at the Anastasis Dialogue of Hieromonk Maximos:
hrm.ductape.net/blog/
Nice hook:
“If indulgences were to be abolished tomorrow, I would not mourn. But I would be worried.”
p.s. I have never heard any genuine authority in the Ruthenian Catholic Church arguing, as Mickey wrote, that “that we are not held to believe in indulgences”, whatever that might mean. AFAIK the Uniontown Odpust still carries an indulgence.
Here’s a link to a decent discussion of indulgences over at byzcath: byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/223955/fpart/1
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itsjustdave1988
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Ignatius
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I believe that is correct. The Latins seem to delve into far greater detail in these things. The ancient Eastern Churches are not obliged to adopt the Western expressions as they have their own equally valid expressions.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
I am going to give Mickey the benefit of a doubt on this one, so this is not specifically directed…
BUT, I have run into a number of ex-Greek Catholics turned Orthodox who have used internet forums to ask disingenuous questions that were pointed and polmeic while playing “dumb”… “Unfrozen Caveman ex-Greek Catholic” comes to mind…
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/Unfrozen_Caveman_Lawyer.jpg
That there was confusion and minsinformation that “scared and confused” (a la fire) seems odd. When they were Greek Catholic, did they not know who their bishop was? Are they unable to find out what is taught?
The pious speculation of the clergy in the Greek Catholic Church - God bless 'em! - may easily leave some without clear understanding. (The well-meaning, genteel Melkite who was my pastor in college was quick to offer his own perspective…) But from there, go to your bishop and ask. It is good preparation for getting a good footing and understanding for - if you go Orthodox - learning what your hierarch teaches on birth control (allowed? no? just barrier method? the pill?) or how to recieve converts (baptism? chrismation? profession of faith? Catholic baptism even valid???)
Hope this thread helps to clear it all up for those who are confused.
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chrisb
Guest
Thank you for clearing this up for me. I hadn’t read all of the posts in the thread. An oversight on my part. Pardon me Brother if I came off too strong or if you felt I was focusing my retort toward you alone. That was not my intention. Again pardon me.
Catholicism is ‘nothing’ if not reasonable. Perhaps, in a world where relativism is the norm Catholicism is a hard pill to swallow. Perhaps, couching everything in ‘mystery’ as is the case in the East is simply easier. It has less edges to burden the contemporary pallet. I almost traveled down a path to Orthodoxy for a whole host of ‘wrong reasons’. Just when my faith was maturing, by the Grace of God, I was given the strength to find peace in my Faith enriched by my Latin Fathers. Praise God.
That said I have the utmost respect for my Brothers and Sisters in the East. I don’t question the efficaciousness of their Traditions but I have recognized that they are not ‘my’ Traditions and it serves me in no way to adopt them. That doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate them and dialogue with those whom call them their own. Our Faith is Logical and Mystical and I have no need to disavow either attribute.
Pax.
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Mickey
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Now there’s a good thread for ya!
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ASimpleSinner
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Well as a head’s up to the confused, listen during the DL. When the priest intonesNow there’s a good thread for ya!
Well write it down if there is confusion, than google him.
Easier still,
Metropolitan BASIL
Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
66 Riverview Avenue
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15214
Telephone: 412-231-4000
Fax: 412-231-1697
Bishop ANDREW.
Eparchy of Passaic
445 Lackawanna Avenue
West Paterson, NJ 07424
Phone: 973-890-7777
Fax: 973-890-7175
Bishop JOHN
Eparchy of Parma
1900 Carlton Rd.
Parma, OH 44134
Phone: (216) 741-8773
Fax: (216) 741-9356
Bishop WILLIAM
Eparchy of Van Nuys
8105 North 16th Street
Phoenix, Arizona 85020
Phone: 602-861-9778
Fax: 602-861-9796
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Aramis
Guest
Ah, but in a couple weeks, Andrew+ retires, and William+ takes over Passaic, and it will be 3 months before Msgr. Dino is ordained and enthroned as Bishop…
There can be times of confusion.
Like when Eparch John of Toronto for the Slovaks was celebrating the Divine Liturgy in Anchorage, he commemorated Basil+ and his own metropolitan.
But yes, generally, just listen to the commemorations, and if you hear a name you weren’t expecting, google it.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. It is easy enough to find out who they are. But it is a more difficult to discover where they stand on certain issues. I wonder if some of the Eastern Catholic bishops do not support the teaching on indulgences? Perhaps I will write letters to a few.
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Alexius
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Yes. It is easy enough to find out who they are. But it is a more difficult to discover where they stand on certain issues. I wonder if some of the Eastern Catholic bishops do not support the teaching on indulgences? Perhaps I will write letters to a few.
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ASimpleSinner
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That would be a curious endeavor for an ex-Greek Catholic to go about - to be so concearned about this issue with (just coincidentally?) polemic overtones…Yes. It is easy enough to find out who they are. But it is a more difficult to discover where they stand on certain issues. I wonder if some of the Eastern Catholic bishops do not support the teaching on indulgences? Perhaps I will write letters to a few.
It seems like episcopal letter writing for points of clarification on issues not always terribly clear in various and sundry Orthodox jurisidictions in the US would be more practical. I suppose that would be an issue for another forum though.
Best of luck.
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Mickey
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I continue to have many Eastern Catholic friends and much love for them. Since most of your posts seem to have an attitude of suspicion and anger, I would guess that any “polemic overtones” would be in your own mind.
If I need clarification on Orthodox issues I would not hesitate to ask the bishop.
Thank you.
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ASimpleSinner
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Well I sure hope that is the case… I hope the “polemic overtones” are just in my mind, and that in here and multiple fora, it is totally just a coincidence that a number of ex-Greek Catholics continue to hang around and coincidentally bring up the “hot button issues” and key polemic talking points.
I’d like to believe that it is a total conincidence that this thread - on a topic I can’t recall ever having heard discussed in lay or parochial circles, EVER - was started by someone in talks with Orthodox clergy already about converting. Given how this topic is almost never even discussed in Latin parishes, I have a hard time believing, on the face of it, that this topic was posted because it was truly a pressing and worriesome thing for many or that it is much talked about or discussed in Eastern Catholic Churches. Its a hot button issue.
So if and when there is reasonable grounds for wanting to argue or debate the merits or demerits of an issue, I have no qualms about telling any one and everyone, take it to the aplogetics forum and let’s hash it out. Where I begin to get my dander up and take issue is when and where a sort of insidious back-door approach to polemics is taken by parties with a possible agenda.
There is no anger.
There is some suspicion.
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Alexius
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I started this thread out of curiosity. Just because it is not discussed in parishes (neither is most theology), doesn’t make it a non-issue. It seems that people love to shove traditional Catholic theology under the carpet to make unity between East and West real. The Pope offers indulgences for such and such a deed and what do we do? You say that this is a back-door approach? I don’t understand. The back-door is used for sneaking out and that only occurs by sweeping these issues away. I don’t have an agenda. You seem to think that there is some kind of conspiracy among “ex-Greek Catholics” to sabotage the Catholic Church. I am offended that you would think I intend to destroy others’ faith. I am searching for truth. I am not Orthodox and though I may become Orthodox someday, I am Catholic. I remain Catholic unless I find the doctrines wrong. Right now, I am starting to see a false unity where people are unwilling to discuss Catholic teachings and would rather be suspicious of each other.
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chrisb
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Alexius,
I honestly believe you should use “ask the Apologist” for some of this stuff. Far too many individual here seem ill-equipped to actually answer your inquiries concerning this topic. There exists a real lack of depth to Roman Catholic Theology which I feel isn’t to your benefit here. It in itself is a real risk to your faith and the faith of others. A few have offered some evidence that the Eastern Church in the past two hundred years spoke concerning their understanding of ‘indulgences’. I honestly don’t believe modern Orthodox will admit to such understanding for the sake of their own polemic. I recommend that you seek older sources within the Eastern Church to read and perhaps it will be revealed. Far too much coming out of the East is being filtered to present an exaggerated distinction between Eastern and Western Theology.
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Aramis
Guest
I can say how a deacon candidate within the Ruthenian church reacted when I mentioned indulgences as a lever to get my mom to go to Liturgy with us: Eyes popped open wide, and “Wait a minute, we don’t do indulgences!”
(“But she does!” was my reply.)
(“But she does!” was my reply.)
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Mickey
Guest
They are.
I think it is a fine topic. As a former Eastern Catholic, I was often told that we are to hold to an Orthodox understanding while not denying the Roman Catholic dogma. That was always a difficult concept for me because there are some direct clashes. This topic is one example. Other examples are purgatory, IC, and papal infallibility. I always yearned to hear clarification about these issues without dichotomy. I’m sorry that you are disturbed that some “ex-Greek Catholics” continue to “hang around”.
There is no need for your anger or suspicion. You think that there is an “insidious back-door approach to polemics”? That sounds a bit paranoid.
P.S–I do not believe that the Eastern Catholics continue to refer to themselves as Greek Catholics. The proper title would be “Byzantine” or “Eastern”.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
More on the rest later…
But thank you for your good faith effort to inform me how we are called. Greek Catholic was and continues to be an acceptable term for Eastern Catholics in the Byzantine tradition. Ask a member of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church or the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, they will tell you the same.
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Aramis
Guest
Greek Catholic is still the legal name for some byzantne-rite churches sui iuris.
Including the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
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