Indulgences - when did they start?

[StrawberryJam]

Yes, my grandmother has an old Missal, and it prescribes certain prayers and grants certain numbers of days for them. This is the practice that I’m asking about in the OP. I would like to know when it started. I understand that the Catholic position would be that the Church’s power over the reconciliation/confession/absolution of sins would pretty much grant it carte blanche in this area, but I would like to see when the Church “realized that” and started this specific practice.

I’m going to guess you won’t be getting any kind of real concrete answers to that one.

 

[SonofMonica]

I’m going to guess you won’t be getting any kind of real concrete answers to that one.

It may be outside the scope of the generalized pool of apologetic knowledge here. Doesn’t mean it’s something to be ashamed of. It’s just that most objections to indulgences, I believe, would be of a theological slant, so most of the knowledge pool here is probably devoted to clearing up what indulgences are, where the Church’s power to grant them comes from, and scripture hinting at that power. I’m not suggesting that I’m the first person to ask when indulgences as we know them (and are specifically referring to here) began being used, but it may just not be readily available information here.

 

[StrawberryJam]

It may be outside the scope of the generalized pool of apologetic knowledge here. Doesn’t mean it’s something to be ashamed of. It’s just that most objections to indulgences, I believe, would be of a theological slant, so most of the knowledge pool here is probably devoted to clearing up what indulgences are, where the Church’s power to grant them comes from, and scripture hinting at that power. I’m not suggesting that I’m the first person to ask when indulgences as we know them (and are specifically referring to here) began being used, but it may just not be readily available information here.

I’m still wondering if we had a historical point to look at for when a formula for praying certain prayers so many times would give so many days off purgatory would really say much of anything in terms of validity. If we say it started at the year X, by X, we still need to know how these things were arrived at. How were certain prayers given more days than others? I noticed these particular indulgences are not in the more current catholic bibles.
What happened? What changed?

 

[SonofMonica]

I’m still wondering if we had a historical point to look at for when a formula for praying certain prayers so many times would give so many days off purgatory would really say much of anything in terms of validity. If we say it started at the year X, by X, we still need to know how these things were arrived at. How were certain prayers given more days than others? I noticed these particular indulgences are not in the more current catholic bibles.
What happened? What changed?

Well, I believe I do have the answer to those questions. First, I would posit that the number of days “formulas” are simply imposed by fiat. They are arbitrary. I’m not saying that’s a corrupt or incorrect practice, or that the fact they are arbitrary is a deal breaker. It’s no more arbitrary than is a prescribed penance at the end of confession, or the number of classes one must take in the seminary in order to become a priest, to me.

As to what changed, I would posit that as a result of a focus on ecumenism and a desire to avoid the rehashing of abuses of indulgences, there’s been less focus on indulgences after Vatican II. Indulgences are not absolutely necessary in terms of the Faith Once Delivered to the Saints, so the Church can use them or not use them as she sees fit.

I haven’t brought up the question of when indulgences as we know them began being used so that I can question their validity or theological underpinnings. I’m trying to satisfy intellectual curiousity, as well as be able to answer the question when asked of me.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Well, I believe I do have the answer to those questions. First, I would posit that the number of days “formulas” are simply imposed by fiat. They are arbitrary. I’m not saying that’s a corrupt or incorrect practice, or that the fact they are arbitrary is a deal breaker. It’s no more arbitrary than is a prescribed penance at the end of confession, or the number of classes one must take in the seminary in order to become a priest, to me.

As to what changed, I would posit that as a result of a focus on ecumenism and a desire to avoid the rehashing of abuses of indulgences, there’s been less focus on indulgences after Vatican II. Indulgences are not absolutely necessary in terms of the Faith Once Delivered to the Saints, so the Church can use them or not use them as she sees fit.

I haven’t brought up the question of when indulgences as we know them began being used so that I can question their validity or theological underpinnings. I’m trying to satisfy intellectual curiousity, as well as be able to answer the question when asked of me.

If there is a good reason to balance the benefit of those gained by ecumenism vs. the souls in Need of prayers to get out of purgatory, that may make some sense.
But, how can we know the numbers and do a spreadsheet to see if it was a good trade off?

 

[SonofMonica]

If there is a good reason to balance the benefit of those gained by ecumenism vs. the souls in Need of prayers to get out of purgatory, that may make some sense.
But, how can we know the numbers and do a spreadsheet to see if it was a good trade off?

Well I would imagine that saving souls from potential damnation in hell is a lot more important than helping folks out of purgatory a little earlier, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Well I would imagine that saving souls from potential damnation in hell is a lot more important than helping folks out of purgatory a little earlier, wouldn’t you agree?

If I had any way of knowing how long on average a person is in purgatory then I would have a basis to work with.

 

[promethius]

Well I would imagine that saving souls from potential damnation in hell is a lot more important than helping folks out of purgatory a little earlier, wouldn’t you agree?

It’s irrelevant at that point. A soul in hell can’t be saved any longer. It cannot be brought into heaven at that point. By contrast, a soul in purgatory CAN be brought into the presence of God.

 

[SonofMonica]

It’s irrelevant at that point. A soul in hell can’t be saved any longer. It cannot be brought into heaven at that point. By contrast, a soul in purgatory -]CAN/-] WILL be brought into the presence of God.

 

[promethius]

Can is not exclusive to will, but thanks for the clarification for our non-catholic bretheren who might not understand the premise and action of purgation.

 

[neophyte]

xpistou:

An indulgence does not mean that you do not have to repent of your sin and be truly sorry.

That is patently an inaccurate statement. It may be that someone pitched that as an idea when indulgences were abused, but the specific purpose of an indulgence is to remit the temporal punishment of sins. That means that indulgence is a change to PENANCE, and penance only. This means that in order for temporal punishment to be remitted, the sins involved must be confessed and absolved, and that REQUIRES repentence and contrition.

promethius, I think you missed the double negative.

 

[promethius]

promethius, I think you missed the double negative.

i did. I generally never use them so i forget to look for them.