Indulgences

[OldeThom]

The Medieval Church allowed the Pope to remit sins (an outgrowth from the belief that Christ gave the power to remit sins to his Apostles, but consolidated under P. Innocent IV), where in special cases, some or all of ones punishment for sins, one could earn salvation through these works or acts of penance. Near as I can figure these “remitted” activities and/or pronouncements eventually evolved into indulgences. The idea was (is?) that if one indulged in indulgences (sorry ) then your stay in purgatory after death would be shortened (many variables and tenants not withstanding of course.) By the 16th century it was also extended to those that were thought to already be in purgatory. My apologies if that isn’t quite accurate or specific enough, but I think that is the gist.

There is good argument here that Luther’s objections to the theory and practice of indulgences were as a result of the overindulgent use of indulgences, especially as it related to these indulgences funding cathedrals, securing papal lands and underwriting war. Some of his arguments against these indulgences are in fact within his now famous Ninety-Five Theses. (Again strong argument that the theory and practice of indulgences may have led him to his view of sola fida, though by no means confined to just Luther.)

In view of CCC 1032 and 1471 - 1498, and this link: catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp and other documents, like The Plenary Indulgence (removing all punishment) announcement of P. Benedict, “will be valid throughout the Pauline Year which will run from June 28, 2008 to June 29, 2009. Plenary indulgences, if all the conditions are fulfilled, remove all temporal punishments that afflict people as a result of their sins. The scriptural roots of indulgences are found in Matthew 16.” (maybe vs 19? What conditions?)

I am greatly confused by it all and would like to know how the average Catholic views and/or uses indulgences today. Since it is doctrine (CCC 1471) is it a required practice? or a result of confession and the Sacrament of Penance?

Kindly limit your remarks to indulgences and not Luther or sola fide. Thank you in advance.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[reggieM]

The Medieval Church allowed the Pope to remit sins (an outgrowth from the belief that Christ gave the power to remit sins to his Apostles, but consolidated under P. Innocent IV), where in special cases, some or all of ones punishment for sins, one could earn salvation through these works or acts of penance. Near as I can figure these “remitted” activities and/or pronouncements eventually evolved into indulgences. The idea was (is?) that if one indulged in indulgences (sorry ) then your stay in purgatory after death would be shortened (many variables and tenants not withstanding of course.) By the 16th century it was also extended to those that were thought to already be in purgatory. My apologies if that isn’t quite accurate or specific enough, but I think that is the gist.

I think this is jumbled and not accurate.
Indulgences are a modification of the penitential practices of the early church. When a person was assigned a penance after sacramental confession, the penances were often severe and could last for years. There would be a group of penitents standing in front of the Church for all of that time. They were not permitted to enter the church during the time of penance, (among other practices they were given, depending on the severity of the sin).

The church relaxed penances over time. Indulgences were a means of doing penance in this way. So, if a person made a pilgrimage to a sacred shrine, this was said to count for “a 30 days indulgence”. That meant that it was equivalent to doing the 30 days of penance (as was given in the early church during the apostolic age). The same would be true of making a charitable donation, or offering certain prayers – these were means of doing penance.

There is good argument here that Luther’s objections to the theory and practice of indulgences were as a result of the overindulgent use of indulgences, especially as it related to these indulgences funding cathedrals, securing papal lands and underwriting war.

Sure, there was a misunderstanding on all sides. Most of Luther’s arguments were directed at indulgences. If this situation had been corrected, he probably never would have gone into heresy and schism (it’s hard to say because he was a volitile character). But people had the impression that they were “buying time off in purgatory” by paying some money.
But the concept was rightly a matter of making an offering to the Church – as a charitable gift. This is basically just a penance. Nowadays, priests just tell us to say some prayers after confession, but they could say that we have to make a donation to a Catholic cause. It’s not “buying” grace, but making an offering in penance.

I am greatly confused by it all and would like to know how the average Catholic views and/or uses indulgences today. Since it is doctrine (CCC 1471) is it a required practice? or a result of confession and the Sacrament of Penance?

What, more specifically, are you confused about?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Further to the proceeding dialog please know that alms giving is highly biblical and is mentioned all through both the Old and New Testaments.

The history of the Church in Apostolic times shows that the early Christians fully realized the importance of this obligation. Community of goods (Acts 4:32), collections in church (Acts 11:29 sqq.; 1 Corinthians 16:1; Galatians 2:10) are examples of the early church system of charity.

Scripture tells us almsgiving renders the donor like unto God Himself (Luke 6:30, 36); nay more, it renders God Himself debtor to those giving alms (Matthew 25:40 sqq.). Moreover, almsgiving adds special efficacy to prayer (Tobit 4:7), tends to appease divine wrath (Hebrews 13:16);** liberates from sin and its punishment (Ecclus., xxix), and thus paves the way to the gift of faith (Acts 10:31). **

More Here: Alms & Almsgiving

As far as Luther’s claims of abuse go It is easy to imagine a few individual and enterprising clerics might have inappropriately taken advantage of scrupulous minded wealthy men to “graciously accept their donations” while letting them think whatever they wanted with respect to buying favor with God. And one can imagine that some wealthy likely at times had their hired servants sit in churches and pray for them thinking they could win reprieve from the punishments for their sins. This again was never church teaching and is more reflective of the enterprising minds of wealthy men who often might wrongly imagine that everything has a price on it - even heaven. But this “buying one’s way into heaven” has never been taught by the Catholic Church or authorized as a teaching. My own theory is Luther played on typical German class envy and demagoguery and the poor working class imagined that the rich could buy themselves into heaven but being poor they would have to beg to get in - again not Catholic teaching but rather the imagined fears arising from class envy common of the time.

The other poster hit it on the nail head though. In the early church there were public confession and severe ostracizing that was quite humiliating. Sinners who confessed their sins were made to stand in sorrow and humility at the church entrance for months, and beg the others to pray for them before being readmitted.

The Church has lessened the penances over the years.

Also please note that there is no way to know who gains a plenary indulgence. The pope authorizes them (based on the merits of the Church) but to gain one requires a perfect detachment from sin while being in a state of grace. This is VERY hard to do for most of us who are not living like saints - especially if one has past serious sins and any hint of “appetite” to repeat one (e.g. fornication ). Some saints tell us that perhaps 1 in 100,000 people are pious enough to gain a full plenary indulgence (and this was stated in the middle ages in a time of very pious religious practice).

I practice these myself - daily. All major feast days have a full plenary indulgence associated with it. It is very easy to gain a partial indulgence by reading scripture for a half hour or simple prayers. So an active daily prayer life, especially in front of a blessed image or relic gains quite a few days of penitential indulgences. Also see the list of indulgences for many formal declarations: Enchiridion of Indulgences (1968)

Here is a list of plenary indulgences List of Plenary Indulgences

Note most religious orders have special patron saint feast days that have attached full plenary indulgences too. So if you join a secular 3rd order or confraternity you can get even more opportunities. Don’t forget the All Saints and All Souls octave which are coming up too - this is huge!

James

 

[OldeThom]

Thank you reggieM and James for the clarification. I did not realise I was asking about alms giving however … The information you both provided and further study was helpful. From what I was reading it sounded … very odd indeed that one could buy off ones punishment.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you reggieM and James for the clarification. I did not realise I was asking about alms giving however … The information you both provided and further study was helpful. From what I was reading it sounded … very odd indeed that one could buy off ones punishment.

Respectfully,
Thom

Many things in the spiritual life seem odd; however, one is not “buying off” or “working off” one’s “punishment” (which I think is better understood as healing, rather than punishment) in Purgatory when one collects Indulgences.

Rather, one is receiving graces that wash away and heal the wounds of sin during our own lifetime, so that the process of Purgatory will be less painful.

An analogy might be, suppose you want to participate in a race in one year’s time. You have several choices; you can spread your exercises out over a period of time; you can try to cram all of your exercises into a short period of time just before the race, or you can take your chances and hope that you are fit enough to run the race without keeling over dead at the finish line.

A coach might say, “For every mile you run in the first six months of training, you will gain x amount of endurance so as to be able to complete the more intense training in the second six months.”

No one would accuse you of cheating, or “buying” endurance if you were to take advantage of the exercises available to you in the first six months - in fact, they would admire you and encourage you, because you are doing everything possible to win the race.

Same thing with Indulgences - they are things we can do to help ourselves improve spiritually, so that when we come to die, we have the strength that we will need, to not lose faith in the last moments of consciousness.

 

[OldeThom]

Rather, one is receiving graces that wash away and heal the wounds of sin during our own lifetime, so that the process of Purgatory will be less painful.

jmcrae, thank you. Well put and your analogy was apt.

Once again I feel like a stranger in a strange land, I wish it were not so, but it is. Speaking of which, you know how one can learn a foreign language faster and more thoroughly by living in a country where that language is primary? I feel it would be helpful for me to do just that if it were possible to be surrounded by Catholic teaching, thought and tradition for a while, say about two calendar years. (There are few options out there I think for an older, divorced, disabled Wesleyan type protestant male on the road to Catholicism.) There simply is so much more depth to the Catholic spiritual life than your typical US protestant lifestyle, and just too much tradition I know next to nothing about much less experienced. Indulgences are just one of many, many areas of which I have no frame of reference. Taking the RCIA class and going to Mass just does not seem immersive enough.

Over the last year and half I have learned many things about the Catholic Church (and conversely my own long held beliefs) and in the midst of a spiritual awakening, but all within the confines of my little room. However, I know I am impatient. I will continue to pray and meditate on the Lord in these things.

Thanks again, very helpful indeed.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Thing]

To gain a plenary indulgence the person needs to just live their Christian Faith perfectly as taught by the Apostles; one needs to;
a. go to confession - NT confess your sins to one another.
b. go to mass - NT do this in remembrance of Me.
c. pray for the Popes intentions - NT I prayed for you Peter.
d. firm purpose of living this Faith - NT almost any chapter.

From one perspective:
Souls in purgatory eventually do come out of it, that is the point of purgatory, that one comes out the other side purified.
The point of this life on earth is that we prepare for the ‘day of the Lord’, we must become and ‘be holy because He is holy’.
Purgatory is not the point of life, life more abundantly, life in heaven is the point of life, and living our Faith as perfectly as we know how is surely the surest way of entering swiftly into that state; - what must I do to have everlasting life - be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.
So what can one do in this life to live their Faith perfectly and enter heaven swiftly - well we are told that love covers a multitude of sins, so I take it that a soul who was told that love covers a multitude of sins would be severely upset to find out after death that love did not in fact cover a multitude of sins but that there was a little deception going on and the soul was not told that there would also be a few thousand years suffering in fire first before love covered the multitude of sins.
No, I think if love covers a multitude of sins then I think the soul is clear and free of those multitude of sins.
So living our faith is doing faithfully what was instructed in the NT, as above, and also it requires that we live our faith in love, the greater our love the closer to heaven we become.
A plenary indulgence requires a lot, it requires that someone should live their Faith perfectly. But Catholicism is generous and it acknowledges a fair effort to live ones faith. But how do you quantify the spiritual, well you cannot. But you can say that, proportionally, what you put into something you will get out of it, - or as the NT says, what you put into something you will reap from in multiples.
If a little love covers a multitude of sins then a lot of love covers a vast multiple… so the Church using her authority might say to you make a special effort now and live your Faith perfectly in love and you will reap the rewards of that effort - whether your perfect effort is half an hour reading or a thirty day walk over 600 miles as a pilgrim you will benefit from it at least as much as you put into it.

As for the money side of indulgences, obviously this was not a real problem for the reformers, as no money has exchanged hands for many hundreds of years but the reformers wish to remain for the large part separate from the Church. The Church allowed anyone to make a nominal donation, but it was voluntary and not a condition of an indulgence. Because of abuses by individuals indulgences were used as a stick to beat the Church, not by the faithful who undertook indulgences in the right spirit, but by critics of the Church, The Council of Trent in its decree “On Indulgences” decreed that all criminal gain therewith connected shall be entirely done away and in 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions. But again, I think the reformers missed this bit.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What many Catholics do not know is that one may gain a full plenary indulgence every day by doing any of the following:

• Reading of Sacred Scripture (for 30 minutes)
• ]Recitation of the Marian Rosary (Rosarii marialis recitatio)
• Exercise of the Way of the Cross
• Adoration of the Most Blessed Sacrament

There is even a full plenary indulgence available on one’s death bed.
Full Plenary Indlugence at Death:

1. The Moment of Death (In articulo mortis)
   To the faithful in danger of death, who cannot be assisted by a priest to bring them the sacraments and impart the Apostolic Blessing with its plenary indulgence (see Canon 530 ß 3 of Code of Canon Law), Holy Mother Church nevertheless grants a plenary indulgence to be acquired at the point of death, provided they are properly disposed and have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime. The use of a crucifix or a cross to gain this indulgence is praiseworthy.

The plenary indulgence at the point of death can be acquired by the faithful, even if they have already obtained another plenary indulgence on the same day.

The above grant is taken from the [1967] Apostolic Constitution The Doctrine of Indulgences, Norm 18.

The condition: provided they have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime supplies in such cases for the three usual conditions (confession, eucharist and prayer for the Pope’s intentions) required for the gaining of a plenary indulgence.

So, any Catholic who through life keeps themselves out of mortal sin, receives the sacraments and has a regular prayer life can be expected to gain a full plenary indulgence at death. This is especially efficacious if one makes a conscious dedication of one’s death passions to Christ as recognition that death is the just penalty for humanity’s original estrangement from God and to identify with Jesus’ own death on the cross (as did the Good Thief). Such a soul can die in the peace that it will be with Jesus in paradise that day.

So we see that through indulgence grants The Church provides a means by which every Catholic by use of the sacraments and these grants may keep themselves in very holy state and gain heaven at the instant of death and to also be charitable to the poor souls in purgatory to promote many souls to heaven. We are told by the saints and by natural expectations of God’s ways that such souls will in gratitude pray for us before God’s throne unceasing.

I have a special devotion to the Holy Souls in purgatory - see my signature link for St. Gertrude’s prayer which is said to be especially efficacious for many souls each time it is said by a person in a high state of grace.

Every Catholic should be consciously making an effort to gain indulgences both for themselves and for the poor souls in purgatory.

If you want to go to the next level then you should be also looking into the Liturgy of the Hours and praying this liturgy 2-7 times a day with fellow Catholics around the world who practice this Catholic discipline. In fact all clergy are required as a condition of their office to pray this and many religious orders, secular 3rd orders, confraternities and pious laity also perform this discipline.

The full prayer discipline requires a 4 volume set of prayer books or the breviary version for those doing only 2-3 sets of prayers for day. Here is an online source to a site that gives a handy reference to prayers of the calendar day and hour are active for the period by subscription: Liturgy of The Hours - eBreviary.

Warning - this level of pious devotion is addicting and if you go down this path you will be well on your way to becoming a saint, or entering a secular 3rd order lay religious group or even dedicated religious life.

James

 

[rwoehmke]

It has always been of interest to me that purgatory is usually seen as a punishment for our sins. The word itself implies to me that it is not so much a punishment for sins, already forgiven, but as a purification, a preparation for seeing God face to face. Sort of like the final lick and a promise to our toilette that we might make when we are about to meet an important person in this life. Who could be more important than the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

 

[CentralFLJames]

It has always been of interest to me that purgatory is usually seen as a punishment for our sins. The word itself implies to me that it is not so much a punishment for sins, already forgiven, but as a purification, a preparation for seeing God face to face. Sort of like the final lick and a promise to our toilette that we might make when we are about to meet an important person in this life. Who could be more important than the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Purgatory is a manifestation of God’s Mercy and Charity. **It is were we go to to have our fig leaf removed **so we can stand naked before God in an absolutely spiritual purity and not blush or feel shame for any past forgiven sin and fully embrace God’s profound holiness without fear and trembling of feeling unworthy. After entry to heaven we are give our crown and our robes of glory according as rewards befitting divine children of God - each receiving extraordinary spiritual emblems and marks of honors and rewards according to how we honored God in life and did His works.

James

 

[OldeThom]

in 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions. But again, I think the reformers missed this bit.

Thank you … I missed that too and I was looking for it!

To gain a plenary indulgence the person needs to just live their Christian Faith perfectly as taught by the Apostles; one needs to:
a. go to confession - NT confess your sins to one another.
b. go to mass - NT do this in remembrance of Me.
c. pray for the Popes intentions - NT I prayed for you Peter.
d. firm purpose of living this Faith - NT almost any chapter.

This sparked further reading. It would seem the following was left out (besides the “time” factor and can only be granted once a day):

– have the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin
ref - vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html

A condition on the face of it that would be very difficult to achieve on any given day much less on a regular basis for the average Catholic (any Christian for that matter, anywhere.) This would seem to be a very important element in our walk with God and as such every Catholic ought to be doing this every day so as to hasten ones holiness, love as God loves us, serve more fully, and thereby enter heaven more swiftly. (I say Catholic because as it appears a few of the conditions could not be achieved otherwise.)

OK, now I still have one remaining question, if:

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints”. - (CCC 1471)

given:

• The minister of redemption is the Church.
• The indulgence may be plenary or partial, as it remits all or only part of the temporal punishment, within the prescribed time frame, due for our sins.
• The remission is completed by the faithful Christian before God.

then who verifies the indulgence was completed as prescribed?

If I am thinking in circles here, I apologise. I am not looking to disagree, protest or dissect, rather this is an attempt on my part to understand.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[OldeThom]

Purgatory is a manifestation of God’s Mercy and Charity. **It is were we go to to have our fig leaf removed **so we can stand naked before God in an absolutely spiritual purity and not blush or feel shame for any past forgiven sin and fully embrace God’s profound holiness without fear and trembling of feeling unworthy. After entry to heaven we are give our crown and our robes of glory according as rewards befitting divine children of God - each receiving extraordinary spiritual emblems and marks of honors and rewards according to how we honored God in life and did His works.

James

Ah James, thank you! what a lovely image. :extrahappy: :heaven:

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[CentralFLJames]

OK, now I still have one remaining question, if:

given:

• The minister of redemption is the Church.
• The indulgence may be plenary or partial, as it remits all or only part of the temporal punishment, within the prescribed time frame, due for our sins.
• The remission is completed by the faithful Christian before God.

then who verifies the indulgence was completed as prescribed?

If I am thinking in circles here, I apologise. I am not looking to disagree, protest or dissect, rather this is an attempt on my part to understand.

Respectfully,
Thom

who verifies the indulgence was completed as prescribed?

Why God does of course. We use our best practices to gain these indulgences but only God can grant them to the souls in purgatory and approve a full plenary on earth to us. It’s an honor system of course. If somone tries to cheat its self defeating since God can not be mocked.

The authority of the pope is only to grant all Church members to use the Church’s good reputation and merits (collective suffrage of the saints, fasting, prayers etc) before God in attempting to gain these indulgences. Only God knows the interior state of one’s soul. So we never know for certain if we have attained a full plenary indulgence and most often can assume that we gain only a partial one since it is so hard to be detached from all sin. But there is one special day, Divine Mercy Sunday where it seems that God revealed to St. Faustina that we get a complete plenary indulgence just like we do at baptism if we follow the devotion to show mercy to others and have trust in Him. See my link to the Divine Mercy Chaplet and google for more info - this is a hugely important devotional.

James

 

[Thing]

OK, now I still have one remaining question, if:

given:

• The minister of redemption is the Church.
• The indulgence may be plenary or partial, as it remits all or only part of the temporal punishment, within the prescribed time frame, due for our sins.
• The remission is completed by the faithful Christian before God.

then who verifies the indulgence was completed as prescribed?

If I am thinking in circles here, I apologise. I am not looking to disagree, protest or dissect, rather this is an attempt on my part to understand.

Respectfully,
Thom

Consider the question from a general non-Catholics perspective… ;
a person sins seriously, but not being Catholic they don’t believe in mortal sin, or the sacrament of confession, or the temporal consequences of sin, or purgatory, or the prayers of the saints nor the communion of saints.
They don’t believe in authority in the Church in Apostolic offices nor in the promises given to the Church.

What does this person do when he falls into sin which he inevitably will, is he to be left in a state of uncertainty, doubt, worry about the pool of burning sulpher awaiting him etc. etc.
Wouldn’t it be handy if this person knew for a fact, knew that when he heard Christs own words, - who ever hears you hears Me -, pick up your bed and go home your sins are forgiven, when he hears those audible words he has no doubt but that it is so.
Indulgences are just that, indulgences, they are a way that he can know that, providing he fullfils the conditions [normal christian living] to the best of his ability, some measurable effect has taken place - which undoubtably it has taken place. An indulgence is just a measure set by the authority of christs church, and the content and subject is entirely between that man and his God, the church declares its faith in God, His authority, His Church and says to the man yes indeed whatever you ask in His name shall be done - so why the doubt or uncertainty etc., etc.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Consider the question from a general non-Catholics perspective… ;
a person sins seriously, but not being Catholic they don’t believe in mortal sin, or the sacrament of confession, or the temporal consequences of sin, or purgatory, or the prayers of the saints nor the communion of saints.
They don’t believe in authority in the Church in Apostolic offices nor in the promises given to the Church.

What does this person do when he falls into sin which he inevitably will, is he to be left in a state of uncertainty, doubt, worry about the pool of burning sulpher awaiting him etc. etc.
Wouldn’t it be handy if this person knew for a fact, knew that when he heard Christs own words, - who ever hears you hears Me -, pick up your bed and go home your sins are forgiven, when he hears those audible words he has no doubt but that it is so.
Indulgences are just that, indulgences, they are a way that he can know that, providing he fullfils the conditions [normal christian living] to the best of his ability, some measurable effect has taken place - which undoubtably it has taken place. An indulgence is just a measure set by the authority of christs church, and the content and subject is entirely between that man and his God, the church declares its faith in God, His authority, His Church and says to the man yes indeed whatever you ask in His name shall be done - so why the doubt or uncertainty etc., etc.

The Protestant and other non-Catholic who considers himself to be Christian chooses out of 31,102 verses of the bible only a single verse to place his hope for eternity on and that turns out to be the gravely reduced salvation-slogan revival tent chant “believe onto the lord and you will be saved.” This comes from Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Sadly, somewhere in the zeal to save souls and get salvation reduced to a campaign slogan someone conveniently ignored the bit about “believe in your heart” bit. This requires that we not only believe in ALL of what Jesus said but work diligently every day to demonstrate that belief through our life actions. In other words a passive belief is only lip service - we got to talk the talk as well as walk the walk.

To these there is only 1 other verses in scripture that gives them any hope of salvation if they reject sacramental confession and die impenitent: Luke 23:34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing " And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. Invincible ignorance is wearing very thin though in this modern day of information distribution.

We are called to put on the whole entire garment of God and not rip and tear out bits and pieces that appeal to us and take our chances that is its the minimum necessary to get us into heaven. No, a torn and fragmented garment of truth it is not a fitting attire to wear to a wedding feast. And we know that such will be cast outside the walls and there will be heard wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Invincible Ignorance will save some - but that does not relieve a single soul from the obligation to know the truth - especially in this day and age of mass communication.

James

 

[OldeThom]

Well, “thing” … I am one of those general non-Catholic types at present seeking answers along my journey to the True Church of Christ. It is not doubt or uncertainty in my case, that leads me to ask these questions, rather it is a complete lack of knowledge or experience in such things as indulgences.

Thank you once again James . Yes, yes I thought it was God but just wanted to make sure I was not missing something. As usual your comments are an inspiration. I looked into the Divine Mercy Chaplet (I had not run across that yet in my readings or study to date). I will have to get hold of St. Faustina’s *Divine Mercy in My Soul *. I will also need to get a calendar that has all the appropriate Saints days, feasts, etc. I have put that off for too long now.

Like I have said before, I wish I had some experience with these traditions or at least knowledge of them before I started my journey … what I didn’t know and have missed all these years is most staggering. Being so deprived, in a way, feels like I’ve been robbed and violated (as one might feel after your house has been broken into and your most precious possessions have been stolen.) The rich and varied traditions of the Church are just no where to be found in my collective consciousness or experience as the type of protestant Christian I had become.

I was asked some type back, in this or one of the other forum sites I’m rummaging about within, “How can you feel a loss of something you never had?” “Simple”, I said, “Years ago I sensed a big hole in the heart of my belief and faith. Now on this, my spiritual journey, the Catholic Church’s answers are filling that hole.”

Which reminds me … I am forever grateful for the kind answers I receive here in these forums: well thought out, compassionate, and understanding. I am asking these questions on other forum sites as well just to get further perspective on what I already believe and it never ceases to amaze me how cynical and sarcastic many comments tend to be. I found myself, at least once here in these forums, doing the same thing in reaction to that cynicism and sarcasm. I was ashamed after reading it some days later. So thank you again one and all for your continued patience and tolerance of my questions.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Thing]

Well, “thing” … I am one of those general non-Catholic types at present seeking answers along my journey to the True Church of Christ. It is not doubt or uncertainty in my case, that leads me to ask these questions, rather it is a complete lack of knowledge or experience in such things as indulgences.

…

Respectfully,
Thom

I know, I know. It was an hypothetical thing, the point was that the CC has a structure because it has an authority to administer sacraments, etc., and a responsibility, thats all. An indulgence is verified because the CC has that authority. Non-C’s don’t have the benefit of that kind of certainty, from what I can see they’re all on their own, they sink or swim individually trying to figure it out.

 

[OldeThom]

The Protestant and other non-Catholic who considers himself to be Christian chooses out of 31,102 verses of the bible only a single verse to place his hope for eternity on and that turns out to be the gravely reduced salvation-slogan revival tent chant “believe onto the lord and you will be saved.” This comes from Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Sadly, somewhere in the zeal to save souls and get salvation reduced to a campaign slogan someone conveniently ignored the bit about “believe in your heart” bit. This requires that we not only believe in ALL of what Jesus said but work diligently every day to demonstrate that belief through our life actions. In other words a passive belief is only lip service - we got to talk the talk as well as walk the walk.

James, that is a very simplified and understated comment on your part. I will not get bogged down in theology in this thread, but there is a great deal of protestant doctrine that can make quite a substantial case on many other verses on the Bible as well. Keep in mind the same could be said of the Catholic Church’s stance on James 2:24, for example. However, I do accept your point on principle and understand what you are saying in general with regards to the sola fide argument and all that it seems to imply and in fact “practiced” by many a protestant believer.

With regards to indulgences, that which Luther so vehemently opposed, it is not surprising, then, that the reformers went 180º in the opposite direction. The fallout being what you have explicitly put forth as “a passive belief is only lip service.” What many protestants fail to see is that their “door-to-door” type endeavors, missionary service and other external pious activities are not the same as the personal belief in Christ as witnessed through one’s every day actions and morality. In terms of our day to day moral living, the Catholic Church has the recipe and all we need do is follow it step by step. As I was not aware of it before, indulgences are part of that recipe. At least that is my opinion.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[OldeThom]

I know, I know. It was an hypothetical thing, the point was that the CC has a structure because it has an authority to administer sacraments, etc., and a responsibility, thats all. An indulgence is verified because the CC has that authority. Non-C’s don’t have the benefit of that kind of certainty, from what I can see they’re all on their own, they sink or swim individually trying to figure it out.

Précisément! Just wanted to make sure you knew where I was coming from.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae, thank you. Well put and your analogy was apt.

Once again I feel like a stranger in a strange land, I wish it were not so, but it is. Speaking of which, you know how one can learn a foreign language faster and more thoroughly by living in a country where that language is primary?

That’s very true.

I feel it would be helpful for me to do just that if it were possible to be surrounded by Catholic teaching, thought and tradition for a while, say about two calendar years.

Maybe you could be an “adopted grandpa” for a family of devout Catholics who have young kids. As you interact with the family, you would hear the children being taught various different things.

Another possibility is to attend daily Mass, and go for coffee with the bunch that go after that Mass, and just listen to their conversations.

Go to social events at the parish and listen to the people talking among themselves.

Ask for a tour of the Church, from the priest.

Hang out after Mass on Sundays and see what happens - there is a lot that goes on in a parish church after 1:00 pm that nobody ever advertises anywhere.

Taking the RCIA class and going to Mass just does not seem immersive enough.

I agree with this - it barely even scratches the surface.