Indulgences

[schaick]

What I meant, Schaick, was when I shared my own personal life to explain practical usage of indulgences, people referred to implications of earning and treasury, like I paid something or I ‘earned’ something to manipulate God.
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The other point missing is that people do not understand Catholic spirituality. This is a big, big issue I see coming up all the time on CAF.

IF people understood our mystical spirituality – a good start would be ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’ by Ralph Martin who gives an overview by great mystics of the Church, and draws on the steps of perfection and the purgation of self for life in Christ, it would also help people believe in the ancient belief Mary is perpetual virgin…and see that it was ongoing and consistent private revelations through the mystics that we all take the same faith walk, we all have to take the same step, and that our new selves in Jesus Christ and our progress in Him is only the active participation of our will with His.
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So we Catholics are rather focused on our personal and cooperative relationship with Christ in daily life in drawing on the life of grace that surrounds us every day – if we can only slow down and ‘see’ with eyes of faith that grace.
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We as Catholics see The Word – Who is Jesus Christ – as incarnate, infleshed through His Church…

Follow me?..The Word – Jesus Christ – is infleshed and made whole through the Church and all believers baptized into Christ’s mystical body. So we do not have full revelation of Who Christ is found in the Bible…but through the active administration of His Church and the faithful. The Church is authorized to create additional helps towards salvation such as indulgences, and they are only ‘meritorious’ if they are done with a contrite heart with the right intentions.

We cannot have a stand alone Bible. The Bible gives us witness to the Jews and the beginning Christians. But it does not give witness to how the Word is lived out beyond that, except through the Church and those baptized believers. So the Church is an extension of the history of Christians in the New Covenant…otherwise we are all stuck in the first 100 years of Christianity…vs the Old Testament that gave the history of the Jewish people up to the time of Christ.
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I would finally say that indulgences are perhaps about the last thing any body would understand as a Catholic until you enter into a more mystical life.

Oh ok- no sorry you thought that- just trying to understand what Catholics believe with this treasury business…

I wouldn’t say it is just your [Catholic] mystical spirituality. That a special knowledge exists and is held by only a specific few would be a gnostic teaching.

It is because of Luther breaking through the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and handing each Christian a Holy Bible we can each individually experience GOD spiritually. We do not have to go through a the Catholic Church or a Priest to reach GOD, but through HIS Word become a Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. Have HIS WORD in our hearts.

Consciousness of God minute to minute - yes
Romans 8
16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

1 Corinthians 2
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

It is nothing we do-but letting go of concerns/decisions of this life and letting GOD enter in.

I have had some close encounters with the Holy Spirit-when I least expect it. Usually just before really thinking, pondering, worrying an issue. Afterwards I realize I just let my whole being go and I am finally am able to hear. The decision/understanding is not mine but GOD’s.

I have talked about these experiences before on these very Catholic Forums and was ridiculed.

I feel I need to add, these enlightened times have nothing to do with anyone else simply- no new revelations for mankind-but very personal benefits to my spirit.

I do not believe anyone could have these revelations and have them apply to a whole church body -say the Pope having such an experience. Our GOD is a very personnal GOD.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 

[schaick]

I only read to the bottom of page 3 so I’m not sure if this has already been answered, but, those days are not about Purgatory, they are how much days of pennance here on earth one would have to have done to make ammends for one’s sins. Saying whichever particular prayer makes up for those many days. Example, your prayer that you had said is equal to 250 days of a stricter penance in reparation for your sins.

Who and how does one come up with the requirements and length of time for each specific sin?

How do you know GOD agrees with this?

I am a sinner and no matter how great or small my sin, it has the potential to do great harm. The butterfly effect?

 

[KathleenGee]

Schaick,

By no means is Catholic spirituality gnostic…The Treasure IS Jesus Christ. And you should try picking up a doctor of the church in mysticism. St. John of the Cross, in ‘The Living Flames of Love’ said that people who grow in the love God end up being transformed into the very life of God. I wouldn’t call that gnosticism. One call also recall the ancient prophets of the Old Testament; they lived as mystics and always called people back to God.

True mysticism and true prayer always revolve around the will of God.

And drawing on Fr Gregory D’Souza’s article on what is mysticism, he also draws on the reserve that you have…‘There has been alot of confusion in the understanding of our mystical dimension. People have identified it with extraordinary visions, voices, revelations, and ecstasies. They have confused it with emotional exuberance, especially in religious contexts. Sometimes they have failed to distinguish it from psychological and pathological disorders. It is therefore necessary to point out the essential core content of this experience. Mystical experience is the experience of the mystery of God, the Absolute, Godhead, and the divine persons in the most Blessed Trinity. God is beyond every name and form, beyond space and time. He is super-sensuous and super-rational and therefore anything with our senses or understand clearly with our intellect in cognizable forms, we cannot have pure mystical contemplation because the mystery of God cannot be grasped in cognizable forms.’

Fr Gregory is a native of India and is an immediate witness to the various religious experiences of the native people there…quite a great diversity there, more so than here in America.

I spoke to you earlier about how down through the ages, true mysticism, true Christianity and its teachings always bear the same fruit in its follower…the fruit, of Jesus Christ, the Treasury of all good and gives us life vs the love of money, the root of all evil.

Fr Gregory goes on to say that ‘true mystical experience gives us new insight or enlightenment as regards God and creation.’ Thus its practices deepens our faith The person experiences mystical love and provides that person the ability to have a more universal love for all people. One feels closer to God and knows His Presence always before him. One also suffers…one carries the cross. And the mystic experience operates at the very core of our being where only God can work. We become more and more pure in faith…we are passive because it is God’s grace at work and in His time, the experience itself is expendiary – it comes and goes…we do not control God, He controls us…It is 'ineffable…it contains the mystery of God, and there is the paradox…people need to communicate this experience to others…and they are always lacking in words.

Final, in bearing witness to the fruit of Jesus Christ, Fr. Gregory adds…'Moral and spiritual transformation of one who has this insight stands as one of the surest norms to discern this experience. A tree is judged by its fruit. The fruits of this experience consist in a marked growth in the practice of virtues such as detachment,humility, charity, and endurance…which in turn bring about a transformation in a person to be more Christ like.
And it is this witness that the Church judges if the fruit is truly of Jesus or not.

Both Western and Eastern religious traditions point out ways to prepare for this experience…Fr Gregory says the non-Christians work towards the cause of the experience where as in the Christian traditions, instead of cause of experience, we consider them as only dispositions…the end is Jesus Christ, not the mystical experience for its own sake. So mysticism cannot be defined as a form of gnosticism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Adstrinity,

Purgatory is not a place with morning, day and night…it is a state of being. The same for heaven and earth…they are states…and our own souls can already be in them today!

People can have a most pure conversion, are forgiven, and already living in the unitive state with God…who do not have purgatory and go straight to heaven. One case in mind that is most popular and yet very dramatic is St. Paul on the road to Damascus…and his conversion was a great act of grace in God. We all are going through the conversion process one day at a time…this is Catholic thought…not today I believe in Jesus Christ and I am saved…we do not know tomorrow, we are to count the days the Lord has given us.

The Church is defining the grace given for a practice sincerely practiced for one’s complete remission of sin by naming days through plenary indulgences…a person saying a particular prayer or practice in deep faith with a specific intention to know and experience God’s forgiveness and to have a truly repentant and contrite heart is acknowledged…and the way it is done is by defining linear days. I do not focus on the language of days, but have sought indulgences in the past for a great cross I have been given…how the Cross shows me my deep sins and I have been in a suffering state in these times…and so I have reflected and prayed to find the right form to work on my own purgation. Sometimes when I see how many days are granted…I am not thinking of days shortened, but rather that this devotion has been recognized by the Church as most helpful in helping me seek a more holy life in Christ.

And if one is doing this practice in the mystical experience…the gift is not having remission reduced so much, but being transformed more into a more Christ like person…that to me is the reward, to be free of the inclination of sin and to be more an instrument of His will rather than to avoid punishment.

Christian mystics say if you are doing things to avoid hell…it may help that part, but doing so will not get you into heaven either. You have to truly seek God with a repentant heart. Unfortunately the misuse of indulgences from times past has been a real concern for many people. And the use of ‘days’ makes people think they are earning or buying out time when the inner practice of indulgences is not…but an increase in virtue, deliverance from sin, and greater union with God…

I do not want to spend time in purgatory. But God is the judge and I must trust in His mercy and avoid being scrupulous in such matters…know your self, trust in the Holy Spirit Who is constantly at work in the Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

Schaick,

And yes, you do have your own spiritual experiences unique to you…and all we can do is judge them afterwards as to their worthiness…are they allowing us growth in the Spirit, giving us a more positive attitude… I don’t recall any personal sharings of yours…but if they lead you to bear more of the good fruit of Jesus Christ, spiritually you are going forward…there are other means as well about going beyond our own sinfulness.

And yes, I agree with you, and in a basic sense the Church…sin is sin. We do not realize how much one sin separates us from God. But the Lord has given us our Redeemer…and He alone is our justification.

So we are drawing deeper into the life of Christ in the Church to overcome and atone for our own sinfulness through the practice of indulgence…but I think the practice is alot more common with people who are daily communicants…people who try to make it to daily Mass and pray alot…it is hard for people with families…

But again, the Lord looks beyond the circumstances to the heart…and a humble, contrite heart is all that is necessary when it comes to different kinds of people with different kinds of lifestyles and their appropriate limitations.