U
UniversalistGuy
Guest
So indulgences are actually earned?
- Status
U
UniversalistGuy
Guest
You are very honest. I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that I wouldn’t make much of a Catholic either. I feel the Orthodox Church is probably where I belong. This forum makes me uncomfortable. So I’ll make this my last post on here. I hope you and your wife eventually find peace.
Then you should realize that yours is a unique experience.
My own experience includes the usual litany of prayers, as well as occasions where real reperations are required.
I have even had an occasional ‘time served’ in which no penence is required.
Perhaps because the priest determined the humility required to face up and confess was enough.
In any case, it would be wrong to list a ‘lack of reperation’ as a quality to the sacrament based solely upon personal experience.
Ity truly depends upon the confessor.
G
guanophore
Guest
They are a spiritual devotion - a form of prayerful practice - that is based upon the concept of redemptive suffering and the communion of saints. There are many spiritual devotions, such as the Rosary, that did not come into practice until later. They are based upon Divne Revelation, but they are not required for the faithful.
G
guanophore
Guest
May God richly bless you for your sincerity and guide your search.
Have you ever attended Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Rite community?
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I’m happy you’ve had a great experience with it. God bless you.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
S
schaick
Guest
Can you prove this?
Are you saying this is an abuse of Sacred Tradition?
Or is this an abuse of doctrine or both?
Combining second post here:
You see GOD has aready built in a system of indulgences-penance in our lives known as consequences. Consequences, you are sorry, you repay and repair the damage from your sin.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7033271&postcount=35
S
schaick
Guest
So who keeps track of the treasury?
How do you know how much is shared amongst all the people of the Catholic Church? Or is there a perpteual positive balance in some say Mary’s Treasury, her goodness is never used up?
Can you show us proof of this treasury and the way it works?
How do you know how much is shared amongst all the people of the Catholic Church? Or is there a perpteual positive balance in some say Mary’s Treasury, her goodness is never used up?
Can you show us proof of this treasury and the way it works?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Schaick, Universalist…I shared my own practice of indulgences…don’t insult me …ather…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I had to go out…
First of all, I am going to back up. When I have applied myself to the use of indulgences, I referred to Mass stipends – usually about $5 – as a sacrifice on my part – to offer up for my deceased relatives and friends and for the souls in purgatory. I could have bought a latte or done something else with my time.
But the focus is that I am drawing on Christ Himself – through the Mass – the greatest prayer in the world, to give to those His grace and merits, His loving abide. There is reference in imagery to the Mass itself in the final passages of Revelations…the angels attend the Mass being said twenty four hours a day all around the world. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest power of goodness on earth against evil. The Mass is the greatest act for atonement of our sins.
And when we apply ourselves, we are entering into a deep mystical life. Dionysius the Areogapite said was the first to define mysticism for the Christian believer, and it is union with God. The Holy Mountain of the Lord that is always referenced in the psalms is fulfilled in Christ Jesus…we climb the Mountain of the Lord to be in union with Him, some even saying the mountain can also be the climb because we are climbing over our own sinfulness to reach Him. At the end of the world, from above, the New Jerusalem will be the Mountain that will feed all the nations of the world.
Modern people think of mysticism as some kind of withdrawal from the world practiced by unusual people chanting, ringing bells, having visions and inner voices. But as Christians, our way is passive…we must be emptied of ourselves to grow in Christ…and it is in His time that He advances us…so that whatever good we do, we know it is not our own but Christ working through us.
So for a Catholic mystic…it is drawing on the deep mysteries of Christ Himself present in the Mass, the sacraments; it is also drawing on graces for one’s religious profession or lay consecration to a particular institute, or people making pilgrimages…or simple offerings of alot of suffering for the souls in this world and adding our prayers to help them come closer to Christ. A mystic always works to live daily in God’s presence.
And there is the aspect of suffering to mysticism that is purifying us and our moral life. We live in a very hectic world, and we waste alot of time in trivia. To live by faith and not by sight is always a challenge.
As a Carmelite Fr Gregory D’Souza said, ‘Mystical experience calls for a discipline that consists in the purification of our moral life. We are accustomed to distraction and dissipation. We enjoy more what is sensory and worldly, rather than what is spiritual. But mystical life invites us to undertake a pilgrimage from our life at the sensory level to the inmost core of our being wherein dwells the most Blessed Trinity. We are the temples of God. We participate in the nature of God.’
‘When we purify ourselves completely of sin, we are enabled to move towards the divine sanctuary within us through the practice of meditation and the presence of God. This practice gradually becomes so simple that we can see God within us as it were in an intuition. This discipline of purification implies a lot of pain in terms darkness of faith and void of hope. We who are accustomed to enjoying the things appealing to the senses now begin to feel the trauma of faith. Moreover, since these sufferings are interior and spiritual, they are much more intense than the pain we suffer in our bodies. In this way, we participate in the paschal mystery of Christ – the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.’
The benefit of being ‘in Church’ is that we are given structure, we are given community, we are given practices shared with other members. We live and work for all in Christ, including the souls in purgatory, and they in turn pray for us. This is a mystical awareness we have as Catholics. And there is a life long work of inner redemption that is nurtured and sustained by the Church as additional helps beyond the Mass and sacraments. Being alone in these efforts, it is normal for anyone to question or doubt if any progress is being made, or even if one is going in the right direction…this is the problem when people try to direct themselves and their own spiritual life.
The Catholic Church ensures us structure, guidance and community. The Gospels speak over and over how things of this world cannot bring us true peace and happiness, that money is the source of all evil. It seems like every Sunday gospel repeats the same theme over and over, and so for a Catholic to think he can buy a place in heaven or barter with God is only deceiving himself. The abuses of indulgences was primarily clergy.
We are told over and over again to pray for the priests because it is mainly through them scandals and abuses occur.
So to understand the use of indulgences, one needs to understand basic mysticism as that is the perspective that one makes use of these helps given us by the Church. I may also add that it is a joyful experience for people to have a Holy Year, to make pilgrimages, to see how dioceses accommodate our people, and how these celebrations bring new friendships in many parts of the world.
First of all, I am going to back up. When I have applied myself to the use of indulgences, I referred to Mass stipends – usually about $5 – as a sacrifice on my part – to offer up for my deceased relatives and friends and for the souls in purgatory. I could have bought a latte or done something else with my time.
But the focus is that I am drawing on Christ Himself – through the Mass – the greatest prayer in the world, to give to those His grace and merits, His loving abide. There is reference in imagery to the Mass itself in the final passages of Revelations…the angels attend the Mass being said twenty four hours a day all around the world. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest power of goodness on earth against evil. The Mass is the greatest act for atonement of our sins.
And when we apply ourselves, we are entering into a deep mystical life. Dionysius the Areogapite said was the first to define mysticism for the Christian believer, and it is union with God. The Holy Mountain of the Lord that is always referenced in the psalms is fulfilled in Christ Jesus…we climb the Mountain of the Lord to be in union with Him, some even saying the mountain can also be the climb because we are climbing over our own sinfulness to reach Him. At the end of the world, from above, the New Jerusalem will be the Mountain that will feed all the nations of the world.
Modern people think of mysticism as some kind of withdrawal from the world practiced by unusual people chanting, ringing bells, having visions and inner voices. But as Christians, our way is passive…we must be emptied of ourselves to grow in Christ…and it is in His time that He advances us…so that whatever good we do, we know it is not our own but Christ working through us.
So for a Catholic mystic…it is drawing on the deep mysteries of Christ Himself present in the Mass, the sacraments; it is also drawing on graces for one’s religious profession or lay consecration to a particular institute, or people making pilgrimages…or simple offerings of alot of suffering for the souls in this world and adding our prayers to help them come closer to Christ. A mystic always works to live daily in God’s presence.
And there is the aspect of suffering to mysticism that is purifying us and our moral life. We live in a very hectic world, and we waste alot of time in trivia. To live by faith and not by sight is always a challenge.
As a Carmelite Fr Gregory D’Souza said, ‘Mystical experience calls for a discipline that consists in the purification of our moral life. We are accustomed to distraction and dissipation. We enjoy more what is sensory and worldly, rather than what is spiritual. But mystical life invites us to undertake a pilgrimage from our life at the sensory level to the inmost core of our being wherein dwells the most Blessed Trinity. We are the temples of God. We participate in the nature of God.’
‘When we purify ourselves completely of sin, we are enabled to move towards the divine sanctuary within us through the practice of meditation and the presence of God. This practice gradually becomes so simple that we can see God within us as it were in an intuition. This discipline of purification implies a lot of pain in terms darkness of faith and void of hope. We who are accustomed to enjoying the things appealing to the senses now begin to feel the trauma of faith. Moreover, since these sufferings are interior and spiritual, they are much more intense than the pain we suffer in our bodies. In this way, we participate in the paschal mystery of Christ – the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.’
The benefit of being ‘in Church’ is that we are given structure, we are given community, we are given practices shared with other members. We live and work for all in Christ, including the souls in purgatory, and they in turn pray for us. This is a mystical awareness we have as Catholics. And there is a life long work of inner redemption that is nurtured and sustained by the Church as additional helps beyond the Mass and sacraments. Being alone in these efforts, it is normal for anyone to question or doubt if any progress is being made, or even if one is going in the right direction…this is the problem when people try to direct themselves and their own spiritual life.
The Catholic Church ensures us structure, guidance and community. The Gospels speak over and over how things of this world cannot bring us true peace and happiness, that money is the source of all evil. It seems like every Sunday gospel repeats the same theme over and over, and so for a Catholic to think he can buy a place in heaven or barter with God is only deceiving himself. The abuses of indulgences was primarily clergy.
We are told over and over again to pray for the priests because it is mainly through them scandals and abuses occur.
So to understand the use of indulgences, one needs to understand basic mysticism as that is the perspective that one makes use of these helps given us by the Church. I may also add that it is a joyful experience for people to have a Holy Year, to make pilgrimages, to see how dioceses accommodate our people, and how these celebrations bring new friendships in many parts of the world.
I
ICMa
Guest
I thank you to tell me that I am ignorant. The humiliations are useful to acquire the humility. (See Saint Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises, n. 146).
I understand the teaching about indulgences, but I don’t accept it.
You don’t know the Code of Canon Law? Clearly this is my comment.
Not after the death.
Yes, I do. “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Mathew 3:8).
Yes, I believe the Communion of Saints.
B
Berean2
Guest
:yup::clapping::dancing::tiphat:
Dynamite, G-H! (Going into my Keeper Files.) And totally in the spirit of reparations as we see them described in books like Lev. & Deut.
B
Berean2
Guest
Not to mention that an RC post here @ another thread claimed that Purgatory is “outside of time.”Huh? Which is it, then?
OK, can you please explain it to me?
S
schaick
Guest
I’m not sure how I have insulted you.
I am curious to the following:
*"So who keeps track of the treasury?
How do you know how much is shared amongst all the people of the Catholic Church? Or is there a perpteual positive balance in some say Mary’s Treasury, her goodness is never used up?
Can you show us proof of this treasury and the way it works?"*
How does the Church/Priest know that a certain deed does infact out weigh a certain crime? How do you know a person had so many hours in pergutory reduced?
May have just figured it out- is this something decided on by the Pope in Peter’s Chair with the magistrum?
All the crimes in the world it seems that Mary’s goodness factor would be used up by now.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
What I meant, Schaick, was when I shared my own personal life to explain practical usage of indulgences, people referred to implications of earning and treasury, like I paid something or I ‘earned’ something to manipulate God.
I cannot manipulate God. The Church cannot manipulate God. And the same goes for those clerics so many hundreds of years ago who tried to extort money from the laity.
The only way people can understand indulgences – or Mary-- or the Mass as perfect worship – the perfection found in Jesus Christ as the only acceptable offering to God to atone for the remission of sin – can be found in the study of Christian mysticism…particularly that based on liturgy and prayer
Also, when I asked the priest about accepting all the crosses God gives you in love and trying to follow God’ will every day…you will go straight to heaven.
The Church has the power to bind…what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.
We are given Christ’s Church…and consecrated ministers who are authorized by none other than Christ Himself to administrate the Church. So if the Church allows the practice of indulgences – as an additional help and encouragement in one’s faith walk, especially people who had sinned in certain ways of their past and were working on themselves to become more holy through self denial, penance, and additional prayers and almsgiving, there is absolutely nothing wrong in the development of indulgences as a form of penance.
I really wonder how many devout Catholics in old times really believed that they were buying a place in heaven through the use of indulgences.
The other point missing is that people do not understand Catholic spirituality. This is a big, big issue I see coming up all the time on CAF.
IF people understood our mystical spirituality – a good start would be ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’ by Ralph Martin who gives an overview by great mystics of the Church, and draws on the steps of perfection and the purgation of self for life in Christ, it would also help people believe in the ancient belief Mary is perpetual virgin…and see that it was ongoing and consistent private revelations through the mystics that we all take the same faith walk, we all have to take the same step, and that our new selves in Jesus Christ and our progress in Him is only the active participation of our will with His.
Catholics do not focus on the phrase, ‘I am saved’ because I call out on the name of the Lord…Scripture warns us of those who call out His name, perform miracles, cast out demons…but only those who do the will of the Father will be saved…those who persevere to the end.
So we Catholics are rather focused on our personal and cooperative relationship with Christ in daily life in drawing on the life of grace that surrounds us every day – if we can only slow down and ‘see’ with eyes of faith that grace.
Thus with the indulgences, they are additional helps in ridding our inclination to sin and drawing on more the life of grace not found in earning or paying for a place in heaven, but rather drawing deeper in the life of Christ we find evident in the Mass and sacraments. Usually our Mass stipends have been around $5 and the Church often uses these funds for almsgiving and liturgical supplies.
And there is the witness of St. Bernadette. One day she came out of the confessional very happy. Someone asked why, and her response was that she never really sinned…She did commit them but not willfully. And she accepted the crosses Christ gave her, she had a very simple and self-effacing personality and a good sense of humor, very natural, and she was the one Mary appeared to. When asked the lady’s name, Mary said she was the Immaculate Conception. Theologians had been debating Mary’s state for almost two thousand years.
It took the Church 1,850 some years to finally declare Mary’s immaculate conception. It took it 1,950 some years to finally declare she followed Christ into heaven…after repeated and consistent witness of the mystical life of liturgical Christians.
We as Catholics see The Word – Who is Jesus Christ – as incarnate, infleshed through His Church…
Follow me?..The Word – Jesus Christ – is infleshed and made whole through the Church and all believers baptized into Christ’s mystical body. So we do not have full revelation of Who Christ is found in the Bible…but through the active administration of His Church and the faithful. The Church is authorized to create additional helps towards salvation such as indulgences, and they are only ‘meritorious’ if they are done with a contrite heart with the right intentions.
We cannot have a stand alone Bible. The Bible gives us witness to the Jews and the beginning Christians. But it does not give witness to how the Word is lived out beyond that, except through the Church and those baptized believers. So the Church is an extension of the history of Christians in the New Covenant…otherwise we are all stuck in the first 100 years of Christianity…vs the Old Testament that gave the history of the Jewish people up to the time of Christ.
Thus, Sacred Scripture and Tradition are inseparable and are united through the transmission of the Holy Spirit.
I would finally say that indulgences are perhaps about the last thing any body would understand as a Catholic until you enter into a more mystical life.
I cannot manipulate God. The Church cannot manipulate God. And the same goes for those clerics so many hundreds of years ago who tried to extort money from the laity.
The only way people can understand indulgences – or Mary-- or the Mass as perfect worship – the perfection found in Jesus Christ as the only acceptable offering to God to atone for the remission of sin – can be found in the study of Christian mysticism…particularly that based on liturgy and prayer
Also, when I asked the priest about accepting all the crosses God gives you in love and trying to follow God’ will every day…you will go straight to heaven.
The Church has the power to bind…what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.
We are given Christ’s Church…and consecrated ministers who are authorized by none other than Christ Himself to administrate the Church. So if the Church allows the practice of indulgences – as an additional help and encouragement in one’s faith walk, especially people who had sinned in certain ways of their past and were working on themselves to become more holy through self denial, penance, and additional prayers and almsgiving, there is absolutely nothing wrong in the development of indulgences as a form of penance.
I really wonder how many devout Catholics in old times really believed that they were buying a place in heaven through the use of indulgences.
The other point missing is that people do not understand Catholic spirituality. This is a big, big issue I see coming up all the time on CAF.
IF people understood our mystical spirituality – a good start would be ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’ by Ralph Martin who gives an overview by great mystics of the Church, and draws on the steps of perfection and the purgation of self for life in Christ, it would also help people believe in the ancient belief Mary is perpetual virgin…and see that it was ongoing and consistent private revelations through the mystics that we all take the same faith walk, we all have to take the same step, and that our new selves in Jesus Christ and our progress in Him is only the active participation of our will with His.
Catholics do not focus on the phrase, ‘I am saved’ because I call out on the name of the Lord…Scripture warns us of those who call out His name, perform miracles, cast out demons…but only those who do the will of the Father will be saved…those who persevere to the end.
So we Catholics are rather focused on our personal and cooperative relationship with Christ in daily life in drawing on the life of grace that surrounds us every day – if we can only slow down and ‘see’ with eyes of faith that grace.
Thus with the indulgences, they are additional helps in ridding our inclination to sin and drawing on more the life of grace not found in earning or paying for a place in heaven, but rather drawing deeper in the life of Christ we find evident in the Mass and sacraments. Usually our Mass stipends have been around $5 and the Church often uses these funds for almsgiving and liturgical supplies.
And there is the witness of St. Bernadette. One day she came out of the confessional very happy. Someone asked why, and her response was that she never really sinned…She did commit them but not willfully. And she accepted the crosses Christ gave her, she had a very simple and self-effacing personality and a good sense of humor, very natural, and she was the one Mary appeared to. When asked the lady’s name, Mary said she was the Immaculate Conception. Theologians had been debating Mary’s state for almost two thousand years.
It took the Church 1,850 some years to finally declare Mary’s immaculate conception. It took it 1,950 some years to finally declare she followed Christ into heaven…after repeated and consistent witness of the mystical life of liturgical Christians.
We as Catholics see The Word – Who is Jesus Christ – as incarnate, infleshed through His Church…
Follow me?..The Word – Jesus Christ – is infleshed and made whole through the Church and all believers baptized into Christ’s mystical body. So we do not have full revelation of Who Christ is found in the Bible…but through the active administration of His Church and the faithful. The Church is authorized to create additional helps towards salvation such as indulgences, and they are only ‘meritorious’ if they are done with a contrite heart with the right intentions.
We cannot have a stand alone Bible. The Bible gives us witness to the Jews and the beginning Christians. But it does not give witness to how the Word is lived out beyond that, except through the Church and those baptized believers. So the Church is an extension of the history of Christians in the New Covenant…otherwise we are all stuck in the first 100 years of Christianity…vs the Old Testament that gave the history of the Jewish people up to the time of Christ.
Thus, Sacred Scripture and Tradition are inseparable and are united through the transmission of the Holy Spirit.
I would finally say that indulgences are perhaps about the last thing any body would understand as a Catholic until you enter into a more mystical life.
A
Apollos
Guest
Tertullian, To the Martyrs 1, I’m guessing around AD 200:
That last part refers to the practice of people who were about to be martyred offering the merits of their sufferings for the satisfaction of penalties to be imposed on those who shrank from martyrdom.
From a penitential ascribed to Bede, probably dating from around 700 or so:
That last sentence means the Church understood that a lighter penance can be substituted for a heavier one.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Schaick…
Mary is our Mother of all Christians…you can’t put a linear limit on her being…She is also Queen of Heaven and Earth…
About quantity or quality…the Church is simply defining the degree of giving…
Apollos’ sharing of ancient Christians facing martyrdom is one good example how the Holy Spirit inspired them to bear witness to the Christian faith. It is these witnesses and many others down through time, as well as a passage from the Book of Maccabees that it is good to pray for the dead.
Again how much or where to…how come…Christ is the final judge and we must see God as both perfectly merciful and extending perfect justice…and that He is the God of Love.
Defining days as such is part of the character of the Latin Church…the defining of anything and everything it seems.
So we pray for the dead, we draw on the benefits of the Church with the intention as part of the community of both living and dead…for the helps of one another. Joining a secular branch is also beneficial to a deceased members because they are remembered in prayers and Masses.
Again, as the Jewish people have had their history to share with us, the Catholic communion of saints have their witness of faith to share…but the fruit must always bear witness to Jesus Christ…Indulgences are drawing on prayer, the sacraments which are the outward signs of Christ Himself, and other prayers and pilgrimages that deepen our consecration to Christ.
Mary is our Mother of all Christians…you can’t put a linear limit on her being…She is also Queen of Heaven and Earth…
About quantity or quality…the Church is simply defining the degree of giving…
Apollos’ sharing of ancient Christians facing martyrdom is one good example how the Holy Spirit inspired them to bear witness to the Christian faith. It is these witnesses and many others down through time, as well as a passage from the Book of Maccabees that it is good to pray for the dead.
Again how much or where to…how come…Christ is the final judge and we must see God as both perfectly merciful and extending perfect justice…and that He is the God of Love.
Defining days as such is part of the character of the Latin Church…the defining of anything and everything it seems.
So we pray for the dead, we draw on the benefits of the Church with the intention as part of the community of both living and dead…for the helps of one another. Joining a secular branch is also beneficial to a deceased members because they are remembered in prayers and Masses.
Again, as the Jewish people have had their history to share with us, the Catholic communion of saints have their witness of faith to share…but the fruit must always bear witness to Jesus Christ…Indulgences are drawing on prayer, the sacraments which are the outward signs of Christ Himself, and other prayers and pilgrimages that deepen our consecration to Christ.
A
adstrinity
Guest
I only read to the bottom of page 3 so I’m not sure if this has already been answered, but, those days are not about Purgatory, they are how much days of pennance here on earth one would have to have done to make ammends for one’s sins. Saying whichever particular prayer makes up for those many days. Example, your prayer that you had said is equal to 250 days of a stricter penance in reparation for your sins.
- Status