Indulgences

[adstrinity]

Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished.”
Your sins are forgiven and forgotten. Go and sin no more.

bluelake

And, the Passover that Jesus left remaining after the Last Supper WAS finished at that point, don’t see what that has to do with this, though.

You are getting the Bible mixed up.

“Your sins are forgiven” is from Luke 5:20.

“Go and sin no more” is from John 8:11.

Nowhere does it say “Your sins are forgiven and forgotten”.

Anyway, back to the OP, I want to hear, in your own words, what an indulgence is.

 

[Corki]

‘The authority of the church?’
Churches do not save anyone. A church is a place we go to worship the Lord, not an authority.

bluelake

The premise of the OP and the topic of this thread is whether belief in indulgences is essential to remain in the Church.

If you want to discuss the meaning of the word “Church” to various non-Catholic religions, you should start a new thread.

 

[jay29]

Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished.”
Your sins are forgiven and forgotten.

Really? In order to have sin be forgiven it must be repented first. How can you repent of a sin you haven’t committed first?

No sin is forgiven automatically, without repentance first, in Christianity. Nothing is automatic.

 

[dianaiad]

I was raised in the Catholic Church and I attend my parish. However I have some difficulties to accept the Catholic teaching. Especially I don’t believe in the indulgences.
Do you think that I am still a Catholic?

I was raised in the Catholic Church and I attend my parish. However I have some difficulties to accept the Catholic teaching. Especially I don’t believe in the indulgences.
Do you think that I am still a Catholic?

Here is what I, most definitely not a Catholic, understand about indulgences and how they work. Please bear with me, and any Catholic who sees me go off the rails here PLEASE correct me.

Catholics have a concept called “Purgatory,” where people who are actually already headed for Heaven need some spiritual rough edges knocked off; a sort of training/proving ground, where the person undergoes…something (I get varied information about this one)…that
is meant to get them prepared to enter the presence of God. Some have called it punishment…

I don’t know if that’s the right word, since prayers for the inhabitants of Purgatory may shorten their stay.

The final judgment is about the totality of one’s life, all the actions, all the good and evil one does; everything…a weighing in the balance of all good (including repentance and contrition) against sin.

Indulgences, then, are those acts of contrition and intercessory prayers by oneself and others which aid those who are in Purgatory (and who are here, for that matter.) They may be performed by the sinner prior to sinning, even.

The point is the motive: an indulgence is the result of something that must be done for the right reason; not to get oneself out of trouble, or in purposeful preparation for a planned sin, but…because it needs to be done. Donations of money may get an indulgence (which, I understand, is kept track of in Heaven, not here…) but only if that donation is made for the right reasons; not to get out of trouble, but to aid whatever purpose the donation will serve.

The idea, I understand, is that good deeds balance out…not sin, which is taken care of through confession, but the ordinary consequences of that sin.

I’m saying this badly. Sorry.

The POINT is, Luther wasn’t upset about indulgences. He was upset about the way the concept was being misused; one cannot SELL them; they just don’t work that way.

Perhaps one analogy is the very earthly idea of a parole. One of the requirements for getting one, in today’s prison system, is that the felon actually admit guilt and show remorse/rehabilitiation through behavior that shows a change in character and ability to behave. THEN he might get out early, but if he isn’t remorseful, or fails to admit guilt, any hope of early release is impossible. An indulgence, like a parole, only works after the sinner has confessed and been forgiven for the sin already. It does not give anybody freedom TO sin, nor does it ‘pay for’ sin. Christ did that.

In other very confusing words, I don’t see any problem with the Catholic idea of indulgences; it works very well with the idea of Purgatory, and actually makes sense. It is the abuses of the idea that caused problems, not the actual notion of them.

 

[JonNC]

Just curious; according to this:
oca.org/QA.asp?ID=205&SID=3
There seems to be no such belief in Orthodoxy.
Does the teaching of indulgences have any roots in the early Church, the first seven councils, etc.? Or is it a post-schism teaching of Rome?

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Dianaid,

You have a more civil attitude towards indulgences than some Catholics. I found it very hard to explain, I practice them…they are tied to Redemptive Suffering.

I don’t quote and ID Bible quotes, but Jesus said we must do remission for our sins lest we likewise perish. People do not understand the gravity of a single sin…now here is where some people can get scruples…we cannot save ourselves from sin, we cannot do anything to make up our sins before God except a contrite heart.

If we truly repent of our sins, embrace the cross every day, accept the suffering of the Cross Christ has given us, and be all and do all in Christ’s love, and — learn to ask Christ to be our daily atonement…in otherwords, we invite Him to be in the place of our weak nature…we will go straight to heaven…trusting on His mercy alone. I went through that with a priest in the confessional after reading a number of teachings, including purgatory.

Sr Faustina says we will not realize how valuable this life’s suffering was…until we are in the next life. Suffering becomes redemptive when we accept and unite it with Christ, make all that we are and do a sacrifice of love in prayer for Jesus throughout the day…it is immensely powerful…this sacrifice of love when we unite it with our prayers for the conversion of sinners, the perseverance of the good and God’s will be done.

But what is especially hard is every day distractions, difficulties…rush out of bed, make meal, get going…rush, rush rush…

So we have morning offering and daily prayer, the Mass and confession,fasting and penance. They keep us focus on God and help keep us humble. These are the remedies for the remission of sins. The Church also provides for us additional means…for ourselves and others, for the souls in purgatory who suffer immensely because they see God but cannot yet be with Him…because they are being purged of all inclinations to sin. We can also ask their prayers for us in return, just as saints, like St. Therese the Little Flower who wanted to be a missionary…and decided in the end, she would do much good for others when she got to heaven. So the souls in purgatory can help us even though they do not have complete union with the Lord and the saints and angels.

Other means the Church provides are indulgences…I had my profession day in August…consecrated to Mary…so on that day I gained a plenary indulgence by going to Mass, receiving both forms of the Eucharist – the Bread and Cup…and after Mass prayed 1 Pater (our Father), 1 Ave (Hail Mary), and 1 Gloria (Glory Be) for the Holy Father, and recalled my promise to Mary and went home…I do not think what it will earn me or shorten remission for me…

The Mass calls upon the great grace of redemptive suffering Christ atoned for us…we are calling upon the merits caused by His death and resurrection. We will not realize how offensive sin is to God until we are with Him in heaven.

I don’t try at all to think how much of this or that is shortened…I simply try to take advantage of the gifts the Church has given me.

The other side to our sinful nature, trying to overcome it, the gift of indulgences is Mary. She is the one conceived without sin. So we Catholics see her as the greatest Advocate for sinners. To me, Mary is in herself, a living indulgence. I call on her companionship and guidance to illuminate God’s will or help lighten the load, or give me a sense of humor, or help me as a woman…she is there…

So we also have great devotion to Mary in our work for perfection…not being perfect in the worldly sense, but simply being united to God and others in love. There is no perfection on this earth. Perfection is really only truly itself in heaven…where we all hope to be someday.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jon,

There was a discussion about this with the Orthodox who disagree…but I think the differences between the Orthodox and Latin Churches should be fused. I don’t know about Orthodoxy that much, but the Latin rite is administrative and authoritative, and it defines just about everything to be defined and delegated. The Orthodox are more inward and mystical…read St. John Climacus of the Desert Fathers…same Spirit, same Christ…same fruit.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaid,

You have a more civil attitude towards indulgences than some Catholics. I found it very hard to explain, I practice them…they are tied to Redemptive Suffering.

It took me quite awhile to get past the Protestant dismissal of them…of the misuse of the concept…to figure out what they actually were. (Not, by the way, that I make any claim to completely understand them myself…) but from what I finally figured out about the idea is…within the Catholic framework, they make sense. There is nothing awful/horrible/evil about them; they are simply…

I’m trying this again, and I’ll probably screw it up again…

They are the acknowledgement from God that one doesn’t need the full consequences of the sin one has repented of (and been forgiven for) to show the spiritual change involved in repentance and complete contrition. Since the purpose of Purgatory, I understand, is to prepare people who are already judged as going to heaven for the presence of God, then the measure for leaving the place isn’t how much you have paid, but how ready you are to leave. Indulgences, then, are simply recognitions of acts that show that you ARE ready to leave.

The problem, historically, lies in the idea that one can buy and sell such acknowledgements of that state—that one can literally buy one’s way into heaven. Once the concept of indulgences became concrete, they also became–commodities. That caused the problems, because I don’t think they CAN be commodities.

Again, I’m simply explaining my perception of what they are, not claiming that this is what Catholics preach or teach officially. Since that is my perception, though, I don’t see any problems with them, within Catholic thought. As I said, the idea makes sense.

The CONCEPT of character change vs. forgiveness/redemption is a familiar one to me, actually, though expressing it as ‘indulgences’ is not how I would express it in my own religious framework.

I think it goes more toward the concept of free will and how it works, in concert with forgiveness and redemption. I can’t see how a Calvinist could deal with indulgences, for instance.

 

[kamaan]

This site: fisheaters.com/indulgences.html has some good analogies to explain indulgences.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

There was a discussion about this with the Orthodox who disagree…but I think the differences between the Orthodox and Latin Churches should be fused. I don’t know about Orthodoxy that much, but the Latin rite is administrative and authoritative, and it defines just about everything to be defined and delegated. The Orthodox are more inward and mystical…read St. John Climacus of the Desert Fathers…same Spirit, same Christ…same fruit.

Thanks, Kathleen.
I’m still not sure, though, if that answers my question about the early Church and councils.
I’m alos interested in finding the roots of “treasury of merits”.

JOn

 

[KathleenGee]

Dianaid and Jon…

The merits are taking the time in the day to draw deeper into additional helps outside Mass and the sacraments, penance and fasting to draw us deeper into union with Christ as atonment for our sins…our inclination to sin.

It is not anything one can measure with linear instruments. The Church in its essence is mystical and indulgences as the prior helps are essentially mystical. The sacraments are outward signs of Christ within. Indulgences can be dispensed during a holy year…last year was dedicated to the priesthood…in 1987 it was to Mary…pilgrimages are part of the celebrations of a holy year with a special dedication. I can gain a plenary indulgence…using this pilgrimage as time totally focused on Christ and not of things of this world…and if the site is too far from home and a financial burden, each diocese can select an appropriate place to make a local pilgrimage but gain the same indulgence…

It is not taking a trip, having a good time, seeing the sites…it is a holy experience with special blessings by the Church, this being an indulgence and the fruit being one’s being more orientated towards the Lord and not so much on the material and passing things of this world.

In a past post, I read the criticisms one night and wondered where people in the world got this monetary impression of the meaning of indulgences. I pulled out my catechism and saw nothing meaning economical or purchasing merits or favors…but then the next day when I asked some of them…

I realized they were drawing some parts from the same catechism but focusing on the language…so… there is the reality of what happened in the time preceeding the Reformation, which was indeed very corrupt…but not everywhere either in the universal church…and there were other issues as well…I think that many bishops from Switzerland were excommunicated but too late…the fracture in Christianity already in place.

So in essence, indulgences are drawing on more grace in Christ Himself to rid one’s sinful inclination – or adding here, restoration of one’s self deformed by past sins. Sin deforms us. All the helps in the Church, especially the sacraments and Mary, help return us to good form.

I know some have books on the Reformation…but Christianity needs alot of healing and letting go of past sins towards one another…I pray for this daily. We have to let go and forgive…and work on Christian unity.

 

[kamaan]

Wouldn’t you know it… I go to Mass today, and Father does a homily about indulgences

 

[adstrinity]

Wouldn’t you know it… I go to Mass today, and Father does a homily about indulgences

Oh? Do tell.

 

[kamaan]

Oh? Do tell.

The main emphasis of his homily was praying for the dead. He described how it is possible to offer the benefits of indulgences for souls in purgatory, then went on to describe the difference between partial and plenary indulgences.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not necessarily. The other alternative is not believing that Christ forces temporal punishments on mankind at all and that His salvific work on the Cross accomplished COMPLETE forgiveness of sins, period. Just another perspective to think of.

The alternative to believing in indulgences is to believe that we will have to pay in-full **after death **to satisfy the temporal punishment for our sins. I prefer to think that I can work/pray/serve some of that off here on earth. Otherwise, if I am lucky, I will be spending an awful long time in Purgatory.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t think this is fair. The Early Church Fathers and the councils did not rule about Christology or soteriology or matters of salvation in a vacuum free of Scripture. Go and read St. Augustine’s Confessions. The man quotes Scripture every page practically. Go read the Didache for crying out loud! That’s an early Church manual and it quotes the OT and NT right and left! The Fathers like Ambrose, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Clement, on and on, use Scripture in all their arguments and debates.

So why is it “you’re being a Protestant!!!” always the charge in here when someone does what the Fathers did? Indulgences were not a part of the Early Church and are not mentioned ever in the early writings. It’s not Protestant to feel that they have no place in the Church.

Now I’ll duck and prepare for incoming RPG’s…

Stop thinking like a Protestant.

 

[Apollos]

Now I’ll duck and prepare for incoming RPG’s…

Scripture is not the only source of truth, is all I’m saying.

 

[JonNC]

Scripture is not the only source of truth, is all I’m saying.

Apollos,
So, since indulgences aren’t of scripture, as you seem to imply here, and they are not of the Tradition of the early Church, what is the source of the origin of the teaching?

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

So where did this teaching come from?

I understand that the reason Luther broke away was because some Pope was needing funds to build a cathedral and poor and rich alike were being charged money to have sins paid in full, which Jesus had already paid in full.

It almost seems as if the Catholic Church doesn’t believe people are thankful enough for the debt Jesus paid, or that the people don’t understand the full weight of the Sacrifice.

I would like to know more about this treasury where did that idea come from?

No, it’s more like when Dad sends you to your room for TPing the neighbor’s house…you’re forgiven but you still get punished. Now if you go and clean up the neighbor’s house, you don’t have to spend so much time in your room.

‘The authority of the church?’
Churches do not save anyone. A church is a place we go to worship the Lord, not an authority.
bluelake

Are you serious? (Even ) Lutherans don’t believe that the Church is merely a place. Jon, can you back me up on this?

 

[schaick]

Not* exactly. Do you understand what the CCC means by temporal punishment?

Temporal punishment takes place in this world or purgatory as opposed to eternal punishment that is hell.

Temporal punishment is already built into our lives. Have you ever noticed that with the choices we make there come consequences? These don’t come about because of some church ruling.

Consequences happen often enough and a person can sometimes learn from them because the punishment fits the crime - it is a direct result, consequence for the crime.

True penance comes for that person that learns from his consequence. The truly penant person will assign to himself and perform deeds that are appropriate to his crime and show true understanding of the harm he has done.

It is hoped that a true penence will come about for every sin we commit. Can an assigned penance create a true penance?