indulgences

[fineca]

Hi, I just assisted at a Lutheran religion class about Luther and there was some conversation about indulgences. It’s funny how the Finnish history book said that indulgences equaled selling forgiveness of sins but the religion book said it was something to replace the penance in confession.
Can indulgences replace penance any more or are they solely meant to take away the temporal punishmet in purgatory? When did this change?
Thanks
E

 

[thistle]

fineca:

Hi, I just assisted at a Lutheran religion class about Luther and there was some conversation about indulgences. It’s funny how the Finnish history book said that indulgences equaled selling forgiveness of sins but the religion book said it was something to replace the penance in confession.
Can indulgences replace penance any more or are they solely meant to take away the temporal punishmet in purgatory? When did this change?
Thanks
E

www.catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp

 

[fineca]

Thanks for the link but it didn’t answer my actual question, which was:

when and why did indulgences change from replacing the penance given in confession to removing the purgatorial temporal punishment?

Thanks
Emil

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

fineca:

Hi, I just assisted at a Lutheran religion class about Luther and there was some conversation about indulgences. It’s funny how the Finnish history book said that indulgences equaled selling forgiveness of sins but the religion book said it was something to replace the penance in confession.
Can indulgences replace penance any more or are they solely meant to take away the temporal punishmet in purgatory? When did this change?
Thanks
E

They were not meant to replace penance. Some people may have tried to sell them for that purpose but then we do have people selling beach-front property in Colorado today too.

 

[fineca]

What does this mean then?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“An indulgence is valid both in the tribunal of the Church and in the tribunal of God. This means that it not only releases the penitent from his indebtedness to the Church or from the obligation of performing canonical penance…”

I think I’ve read in Catholic sources that indulgences were first meant to release the penitent from the penance…since the aim of both penance and indulgence is to remove temporal punishment due to sin, indulgences could replace penance…or?

 

[Brendan]

Indulgence, which is a temporal Grace, can be gained in the following manners

Prayer
Fasting
Almsgiving

It was to the later that Luther objected, the giving of alms for use by the Church.

It is erronously described by Protestants with 'buying forgiveness" or “buying one’s way into Heaven” which is completely wrong.

As a temporal Grace, an indulgence is the acceptance of Grace towards the repariation of the worldly effects of sin.

It is not only Original Sin that damages creation, but each and every individual sin we do. Temporal Grace helps repair that breach, literally making our world a better place to live.

It is apparant to all that forgiveness does not equally a restoration of temporal Grace. If that was true, Christ’s Resurrection would have restored all the Preturnatural Gifts Adam and Eve enjoyed in the Garden. A forgiven man would not have to toil to earn his food, and and forgiven women would suffer little pain during childbirth (see Gen 3)

But that is clearly not the case, we have forgiveness, but lack temporal Grace. Indulgences are acceptance of Grace to restore the world.

By prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

fineca:

What does this mean then?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“An indulgence is valid both in the tribunal of the Church and in the tribunal of God. This means that it not only releases the penitent from his indebtedness to the Church or from the obligation of performing canonical penance…”

I think I’ve read in Catholic sources that indulgences were first meant to release the penitent from the penance…since the aim of both penance and indulgence is to remove temporal punishment due to sin, indulgences could replace penance…or?

I’m sorry I did leave out the word “Sacrament”. It should have read; “They were not meant to replace the Sacrament of penance.” Confession of sins was still required for forgiveness of the guilt of sins.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The easiest way to understand indulgences is this: Suppose someone steals a thousand dollars from you – and then comes to you and says they’re sorry. You, being a good Catholic, forgive them. But they still owe you the money they stole.

Similarly, when you commit a sin, the Sacrament of Penance forgives the sin, but you still owe a debt. Indulgences affect not the forgiveness side of the equation but the debt side.

Interestingly enough, indulgences are calibrated on the early Church penances – which were quite harsh compared to today’s. So a month’s indulgence forgives as much debt as a month’s penance would in the early Church. (Exactly how much that is, no one knows – we only know it’s the same “amount,” whatever that “amount” may be.)

And a Plenary Indulgence covers all debts you owe at that moment.

 

[desire_the_end]

I’m still unclear as to what purpose indulgences serve. Maybe I can’t read tonight.

 

[edward_george]

Think of it like this. Your soul is a piece of plywood. Every time you sin, you put a nail in that plywood. Whenever you go to confession and have your sins absolved, the nails are pulled out–but a whole still remains. Indulgences (and Purgatory, if one dies in God’s friendship but still owing that temporal debt for sin) fill up the holes where the nails have been hammered in.

-ACEGC

 

[tdandh26]

Vern, is correct. In the earily Church after a penitant had confessed their sins, there were usually very harsh penances. You have heard of sack cloth and ashes, well try wearing one for a year as a penance. The Church then realizing that many people skipped confession to avoid these penances, decided that rather than sack cloth for a year they could say certain prayers or do certain things such as pilgrimages, service to the poor, etc, to attone for their sins. It also was required to have the form of the particular indulgence approved from the pope for it to be an actual indulgence. That is why you see things like 3 years indulgence after certain prayers, and it usually must be said on a certain date or after communion, etc. with other actions such as confession and communion along with prayer for the Pope.

In the time of Luther there were certain priests, not all of them, who were selling indulgences. This was a terrible offense and the Church itself condemned it well before Luther said a word. But, like today some priest decide to do their own will rather than what the Church teaches, thus those priests are guilty of giving scandal to members of the Body of Christ.

This was not Luthers only reason for the things he did but it was one of them.

 

[fineca]

There have been some good points about indulgences, but the question remains unanswered: WHEN and WHY did indulgences change from replacing the penance given in confession to removing the punishment waiting for us in purgatory? In the Early Church the penances were hard, true, so that’s why they thought one could make a pilgrimage instead of suffering for years from a hard penance. But why did they make it so complicated, why didn’t they simply change the penances so that they wouldn’t be so hard? And in fact they did later on (when?), and I suppose then indulgences ceased to serve the purpose of replacing penance so nowadays people talk about them only in the context of removing temporal punishment waiting for us in purgatory if we don’t make amends for the wrongs we’ve done here on earth…am I right? Please specify and answer the actual question Thanks! Emil

 

[vern_humphrey]

fineca:

There have been some good points about indulgences, but the question remains unanswered: WHEN and WHY did indulgences change from replacing the penance given in confession to removing the punishment waiting for us in purgatory?

They didn’t – indulgences always related to purgatory. Penance also relates to purgatory. Both are ways to purge yourself of the consequences of your sins.

fineca:

In the Early Church the penances were hard, true, so that’s why they thought one could make a pilgrimage instead of suffering for years from a hard penance. But why did they make it so complicated, why didn’t they simply change the penances so that they wouldn’t be so hard?

Because they can’t change the consequences of your sin – pay now, or pay later.

fineca:

And in fact they did later on (when?), and I suppose then indulgences ceased to serve the purpose of replacing penance so nowadays people talk about them only in the context of removing temporal punishment waiting for us in purgatory if we don’t make amends for the wrongs we’ve done here on earth…am I right? Please specify and answer the actual question Thanks! Emil

Indulgences and penances always had the same goal – of allowing you to pay the consequences of your sins.

 

[Brendan]

vern humphrey:

Indulgences and penances always had the same goal – of allowing you to pay the consequences of your sins.

Sort of, The indulgence is the repairaition of the sin, the penance is to provide a strength to resist the sin in the future.