Indulgences

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clarktaylor

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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7131088.stm

I read the above a few days ago and it has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in a while. The Pope says that if you go and pray “at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year” you will get less time in Purgotory.

I personally don’t believe in Purgotory. It seems to me that there’s evidence for and against. But I can’t understand the point of indulgences. Does this kind of thing not embarrass Catholics? And where does the Pope get his justification for this? Is he in charge of purgutory? I think not. I was taught that God is perfectly just and righteous; he wouldn’t say “those that pray at Shrine A get less time and those that pray at shrine B get more time in purgatory.” or “those that pray on Feb 10th get less time and those that pray on the 15th get more time…”

It’s ridiculous.

As a side point… I live in Spain (although i’m scottish) and every year here they have the “Day of the Mother of God” where they take a statue of Mary from one of the churches in the town and parade through the streets with it then take it back to the church where crowds of people queue to kiss and pray at the feet of the statue. Any comments?
 
clarktaylor said:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7131088.stm

I read the above a few days ago and it has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in a while. The Pope says that if you go and pray “at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year” you will get less time in Purgotory.

I personally don’t believe in Purgotory. It seems to me that there’s evidence for and against. But I can’t understand the point of indulgences. Does this kind of thing not embarrass Catholics? And where does the Pope get his justification for this? Is he in charge of purgutory? I think not. I was taught that God is perfectly just and righteous; he wouldn’t say “those that pray at Shrine A get less time and those that pray at shrine B get more time in purgatory.” or “those that pray on Feb 10th get less time and those that pray on the 15th get more time…”

It’s ridiculous.
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Ridiculous?

Curious. You admit that you do not understand indulgences yet you judge them to be ridiculous. This is quite bold.
As a side point… I live in Spain (although i’m scottish) and every year here they have the “Day of the Mother of God” where they take a statue of Mary from one of the churches in the town and parade through the streets with it then take it back to the church where crowds of people queue to kiss and pray at the feet of the statue. Any comments?
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One thing at a time.
 
clarktaylor said:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7131088.stm

I read the above a few days ago and it has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in a while. The Pope says that if you go and pray “at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year” you will get less time in Purgotory.

I personally don’t believe in Purgotory. It seems to me that there’s evidence for and against. But I can’t understand the point of indulgences. Does this kind of thing not embarrass Catholics? And where does the Pope get his justification for this? Is he in charge of purgutory? I think not. I was taught that God is perfectly just and righteous; he wouldn’t say “those that pray at Shrine A get less time and those that pray at shrine B get more time in purgatory.” or “those that pray on Feb 10th get less time and those that pray on the 15th get more time…”

It’s ridiculous.

As a side point… I live in Spain (although i’m scottish) and every year here they have the “Day of the Mother of God” where they take a statue of Mary from one of the churches in the town and parade through the streets with it then take it back to the church where crowds of people queue to kiss and pray at the feet of the statue. Any comments?
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Have you ever actually read the requirements for an indulgence before? Here’s the requirements for this one:

“Cardinal Stafford said that to obtain the special indulgence one must fulfill the normal requirements set by the church for all plenary indulgences; these include the person going to confession within a reasonably short period of time, receiving the Eucharist and praying for the intentions of the pope, all in a spirit of total detachment from the attraction of sin.”

In other words, the indulgence serves as a sort of extra penance, and unless the other conditions are met, (including confession, as a Catholic would normally use to ask for forgiveness) it serves no purpose at all. Now, the highlighted part is very difficult to achieve. One must not even have the desire to sin in any way when one undertakes the pilgrimage. Few people actually meet this requirement for the Plenary Indulgence (meaning that all time in purgatory is wiped away). Most likely, one will actually receive a Partial Indulgence, which again, is the same as doing a penance after confession. The purgation takes place on earth with the penance, rather than in purgatory before entering heaven. It isn’t about praying at a particular shrine. It’s the pilgrimage that matters. One is taking a specific amount of time out of their life to dedicate themselves totally to God. For most of us, a trip to Lourdes would be quite an undertaking. That act of faith is what matters, and serves as the penance.
 
Rolltide,

I understand that you are trying to defend the practice of granting indulgences, but it seems like that by emphasizing (one might even say overemphasizing) the difficulty of gaining a plenary indulgence you run the risk of making indulgences seem a bit pointless.

Also, the way I read some points of your post they don’t agree with the teaching on indulgences. Perhaps I am misreading your post, and if so please correct me! If you don’t mind, though, I will mention what I find a bit perplexing in your comments:
Rolltide said:
In other words, the indulgence serves as a sort of extra penance,
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In a certain respect it does. What is often forgotten is that the indulgenced act itself, regardless of any indulgence attached to it, has a penitential value. So, when performed in the state of grace it would remit temporal punishment on its own. When the Church attaches an indulgence to these acts She applies her own merits on top of the merits acquired by the actor in the first place. The Church grants an equal remission of punishment from the her treasury of merit of which she is custodian.
Rolltide said:
and unless the other conditions are met, (including confession, as a Catholic would normally use to ask for forgiveness) it serves no purpose at all.
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That’s not true, given what I pointed out above. Regardless of whether or not one obtains an indulgence, if one is in the state of grace and performs the indulgenced act with a contrite heart one gains the merits from the act itself.
Rolltide said:
Most likely, one will actually receive a Partial Indulgence, which again, is the same as doing a penance after confession.
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Again, from what I said above, a partial indulgence is not the same as doing penance after confession. A partial indulgence adds merit and removes temporal punishment over and above what the penitential act itself would achieve. It looks like what you have written (that a plenary indulgence is extremely difficult to obtain and that a partial indulgence is nothing more than doing penance) has the combined effect of making indulgences rather pointless. And surely they are not. 👍

Again, I hope I haven’t mischaracterized your post, and if I have please correct me. Perhaps you were just using hyperbole in your defense of the doctrine on indulgences?

God bless,
VC
 
First and foremost, your reference to Church teachings is an anti-Catholic BBC? Seems you’d want to find out what the Church teaches from the Church not the BBC.
Second, you don’t believe in Purgatory so why would you care what the Church teaches about it?
Third, you can’t understand the point of indulgences to a state you don’t believe in. Go figure.
Forth, no it doesn’t embarrass Catholics.
Where the Pope gets his justification is Jesus the Christ. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Fifth, before you decide who has authority check the Word of God in Scripture
www.drbo.org:
Matthew 10,40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.
Luke 10, 16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
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clarktaylor said:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7131088.stm

I read the above a few days ago and it has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in a while. The Pope says that if you go and pray “at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year” you will get less time in Purgotory.

I personally don’t believe in Purgotory. It seems to me that there’s evidence for and against. But I can’t understand the point of indulgences. Does this kind of thing not embarrass Catholics? And where does the Pope get his justification for this? Is he in charge of purgutory? I think not. I was taught that God is perfectly just and righteous; he wouldn’t say “those that pray at Shrine A get less time and those that pray at shrine B get more time in purgatory.” or “those that pray on Feb 10th get less time and those that pray on the 15th get more time…”

It’s ridiculous.

As a side point… I live in Spain (although i’m scottish) and every year here they have the “Day of the Mother of God” where they take a statue of Mary from one of the churches in the town and parade through the streets with it then take it back to the church where crowds of people queue to kiss and pray at the feet of the statue. Any comments?
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This is a good example of the sort of nonsense people get caught up in when they turn away from Gods Word, the Sacred Scriptures.

I’m sure there will be a lot of money made from this scam but what’s even worse than this is that a lot of people actually believe this nonsense.
 
The (Edited) truth of the matter is that the Pope has been given authority, as is stated in Matthew 16, by Christ, and so what he says goes. Also, I believe there are some non-biblical texts out their that were written at the time of the Church’s foundation that do talk and coincide with these things.
 
(Edited)
If you want to object to the subject of indulgences, go ahead…Just make sure that you know what an indulgence is (and isn’t!), and how a person goes about getting one.

And, OP, you seem to be at least as:shrug: confused over indulgences as Asa.
If you want to argue against them, after you understand them properly, that’s OK. But find out what you’re talking about first; fair is fair.
🤷
 
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven.”

Indulgences are foreign to many Christians. But this is what the Church says. You may not like it, but the church that Jesus founded says it is so. It is a doctrine of faith. I trust Jesus knew what He was doing when He started the Church.

Why didn’t Jesus say “I will give you the keys of the kingdom and you will follow the bible alone and teach only that which is clearly outlined in it. Now you do know that this Bible will not be compiled for 300 years but that’s the rule.”?

Why is this so hard to understand?
 
Zooey said:
Asa, you are:rolleyes: seriously going to have to explain to me, how on earth anybody is going to make “a lot of money” off the places where people choose to pray.:confused: :confused:
If you want to object to the subject of indulgences, go ahead…Just make sure that you know what an indulgence is (and isn’t!), and how a person goes about getting one.

And, OP, you seem to be at least as:shrug: confused over indulgences as Asa.
If you want to argue against them, after you understand them properly, that’s OK. But find out what you’re talking about first; fair is fair.
🤷
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If we’re going to point fingers about who’s making more money scamming believers, all we have to do is look at the “prosperity gospel” and the televengalists. People just love to spread propaganda when they have nothing to argue.
 
clarktaylor said:
I personally don’t believe in Purgotory. It seems to me that there’s evidence for and against. But I can’t understand the point of indulgences. Does this kind of thing not embarrass Catholics? And where does the Pope get his justification for this? Is he in charge of purgutory? I ?
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no, we Catholics do not get embarrassed by the personal opinions of persons who have not been given authority from God to protect and hand on His Revelation on Earth. The Pope gets his justification, and yes, he is in “charge” of purgatory in that he is “in charge” of whose sins are forgiven and whose are not (in the binding and loosing authority granted by Christ to the apostles and their successors–the bishops–on Easter night) and in declaring who is definitely in heaven, and in moderating the merits of Christ and the treasury of merit earned through Christ by the sacraments and saints throughout the ages, in favor of those souls still in the state of purification after death. The Pope has this authority in the power of the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, given by Christ to Peter and his successors (the popes)
 
puzzleannie said:
The Pope gets his justification, and yes, he is in “charge” of purgatory in that he is “in charge” of whose sins are forgiven and whose are not (in the binding and loosing authority granted by Christ to the apostles and their successors–the bishops–on Easter night) and in declaring who is definitely in heaven, and in moderating the merits of Christ and the treasury of merit earned through Christ by the sacraments and saints throughout the ages, in favor of those souls still in the state of purification after death.
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Hi puzzleannie,

I might be misinterpreting your post, so please correct me if I am.

My understanding is that there are good reasons, actually, to say that the Pope and the Church are not in charge of purgatory. . . in the sense that indulgences that are granted to the faithful with the intention of applying them to those in purgatory are applied “by way of suffrage” and not strictly by way of absolution.

In other words the Church has juridical authority over the Church militant and is able to absolve temporal punishment – but as to the Church suffering can only offer the merits to God and intercede on the behalf of those in purgatory. Its a fine point, but I think that it can help us understand what indulgences are and are not.

I note, however that in another sense, the Church’s authority can affect those in purgatory. . . or rather can divert souls before they go to purgatory. Through Her jurisdiction to absolve from temporal punishment those still living she can help us lessen our time there or avoid it altogether. But once we are in purgatory, I believe Her strict jurisdiction ends, and Her intercession begins.

What do you think? Again, it is a fine point, and perhaps somewhat tangential in a thread where one is defending indulgences against an outright denial of their existence. . . and I might be misinterpreting what you wrote.

Thanks,
VC
 
I just want to add that there is a pretty good primer on indulgences on this website… I think that it would be a good idea to read it if you are unfamiliar with how indulgences really work and what they really are…
catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

And here is one on what people think they are: catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

OP and the person who thinks indulgences are a fund raising activity… please read so you might understand them better.
 
I read the above a few days ago and it has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in a while. The Pope says that if you go and pray “at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year” you will get less time in Purgotory.

Indulgences are not time out of purgatory, though this is commonly held by people who don’t understand either.
 
Asa, you said:

I’m sure there will be a lot of money made from this scam but what’s even worse than this is that a lot of people actually believe this nonsense.

Please give your evidence for believing that a lot of money is made from this.

Either give your evidence or withdraw your claim. Simply thinking it happens is not proof.
 
clarktaylor said:
I personally don’t believe in Purgotory.
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Purgatory is a De Fide belief. The is, it is a required belief. The Catholic Faith is just that, a faith and a set of beliefs. What is a Catholic? A Catholic is one who professes and beliefs the entire Catholic Faith.

If you are struggling with this issue, please about it. Ask the Lord for the Grace of understanding. Also you might give this a read: catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4683

May God abundantly bless and watch over you.

Your brother in Christ.
 
then how about the payments for every mass intentions that we do? is the 10% thingy is enough?why do we have to pay for that sir?..just asking…👍
 
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