Indult Implementation

[kmktexas]

Mysty101:

Yes, I do know about the instructions, but I don’t understand what this has to do with the original question.

My point is that the primary celebration is now the NO or Pauline Mass, so if there is a Priest shortage, an underattended Tridentine Mass should be replaced with a Mass in the vernacular, especially if more Masses are needed.

What about the 2003 GIRM? These are the current norms

I don’t understand what your question had to do with my statement that you quoted. I am sorry if I responded incorrectly.

Yes, in some diocese, replacing a TLM with an additional 1968 Mass might be a good solution. It would depend a lot on the specifics of the situation. Why do you limit the choices to the TLM and Mass in the vernacular? If such a situation occured, a better choice might be a Vatican II Mass that uses the newer missal but remains in Latin in accordance with the VII instructions.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Lanciano:

Leaving the validity aside re: the Tridentine or the Norvus Ordo, has anyone just taken the two Masses and put them side by side in English to see what the actual difference is?

Sorry to cut in on a tangent- but, no, don’t compare the two missals in English. The Pauline Mass is the victim of the horrible ICEL translation and in the 1950’s missals the Tradentine Rite is the victim of equally horrible translation-ese. Compare the two in Latin- I think those that are attached to the Tridentine Mass, in particular, will be surprised at what the difference actually is.

P.S. Where there is a strong demand from faithful orthodox Catholics for the TLM, I think the Indult should be granted as generously as possible. The rotation idea seems impracticle because of the logistics of a migrating priest and congregation.

 

[dumspirospero]

I believe that every Parish should have at the very least one TLM every Sunday…it could be really early or later in the day such as 0700 or 1400 hours. I think this would be the best solution…then everyone would have access to the TLM…and there should be no restrictions, therefore if a Parish wanted to go strictly to TLM’s for every Mass, they would have the support, authority, and ability to do so.

 

[Mysty101]

dumspirospero:

I believe that every Parish should have at the very least one TLM every Sunday…it could be really early or later in the day such as 0700 or 1400 hours. I think this would be the best solution…then everyone would have access to the TLM…and there should be no restrictions, therefore if a Parish wanted to go strictly to TLM’s for every Mass, they would have the support, authority, and ability to do so.

This is very unrealistic, especially given the shortage of Priests. Many Priests celebrate 2 or 3 or more Masses each Sunday now, and you want to add another? Plus there is realy not the desire for it in every Parish, or even a Priest who has the formation to celebrate it.

It is not a Pastoral requirement to provide a Latin Mass. Those of you who really want the Mass, really must realize this. It was pointed out that most Priests who celebrate are older, and who will celebrate these Masses when they are gone?

 

[TomS]

Here is a practical point. The indult Mass in Rochester, NY is in a beautiful old church with high altar, statues, painted ceilings, stained class,and communion rail. In other words it looks like a church. Some new or or remodelled churches do not have any high altar or communion rail, so logistically, it would not be possible to offer the TLM in these places.

 

[kmktexas]

TomS:

Here is a practical point. The indult Mass in Rochester, NY is in a beautiful old church with high altar, statues, painted ceilings, stained class,and communion rail. In other words it looks like a church. Some new or or remodelled churches do not have any high altar or communion rail, so logistically, it would not be possible to offer the TLM in these places.

Neither a high altar nor a covmmunion rail is required to offer the TLM. I attended a TLM in New Jersey where communion was distributed with the communicants kneeling in the front pew. Communion could also be distributed using the step into the sanctuary (which is where the EMHC kneel in many parishes after the Agnus Dei). A high altar is also not required although the Mass is to be celebrated Ad Orientum. Since most of those newer churches have movable altars, this isn’t a big deal either. If the altar is not movable, the priest just stands on the other side while celebrating Mass.

I am not saying that there might be some parishes that are built in such a way that TLM would be impractical - the Churches built in the round come to mind. I am just saying that the structural requirements aren’t that tough to meet. After all, for hundreds of years, the TLM was offered in barns, on battlefields and in homes when necessary, especially during times of Catholic persecution.

 

[netmilsmom]

dumspirospero:

I believe that every Parish should have at the very least one TLM every Sunday…it could be really early or later in the day such as 0700 or 1400 hours. I think this would be the best solution…then everyone would have access to the TLM…and there should be no restrictions, therefore if a Parish wanted to go strictly to TLM’s for every Mass, they would have the support, authority, and ability to do so.

My 37 year old Pastor celebrates the TLM at the one parish allowed to have it in Detroit. If an Universal Indult was given, perhaps many young priests would be glad to celebrate it.
While I agree with your idea, one TLM per square mile area, could solve the problem as well.

 

[kmktexas]

Mysty101:

This is very unrealistic, especially given the shortage of Priests. Many Priests celebrate 2 or 3 or more Masses each Sunday now, and you want to add another? Plus there is realy not the desire for it in every Parish, or even a Priest who has the formation to celebrate it.

It was pointed out that most Priests who celebrate are older, and who will celebrate these Masses when they are gone?

First of all, the shortage of priests is more of a future situation than a present one. There are more priests who will be retiring than there are entering the priesthood. But right now, in the US, there isn’t not a shortage in most parts of the country (although there are pockets). There are some imbalances in allocation. There is one parish near us with nine priests and 6 weekend Masses while our parish has one priest and three Masses. This is still not a big shortage. I lived in Venezuela where our parish had one priest, 6 Masses (1 Sat evening and 5 Sunday) plus Father said one Mass at a nearby parish that was “between priests”. Nor are most of the Masses here full like they are there. I grant you there ARE exceptions but right now, there isn’t an acute shortage.

There was a real surplus of priests in the 40’s and 50’s, even early 60s and that is the way many of us remember the Church. But this isn’t the way the proportions have been for most of the Church’s history, in the US or in other countries. In fact, there are some figures that say that we are actually in better shape when you look at a ratio of priests per Mass/Sacrament attending Catholics instead of priests per “claim to be” Catholics.

Many of the priests who say the TLM are either the older priests or the newly ordained ones. There were many years where priests were not given a good formation in Latin in seminary and those “middle” priests are probably not able to celebrate TLM without considerable preparation. Recent changes in seminary requirements have resulted in Latin again being a core requirement so even if we have fewer ordained priests in the next couple of decades, they should all be able to celebrate TLM. In our diocese, there are probably 20-30 priests who could celebrate TLM. That’s not a huge number but only one priest regularly says the TLM since the indult is restricted to his parish. It isn’t likely that granting the indult more generously would result, at least in this diocese, with more Masses than priests to say them.

There may also be some parishes where there is no desire to have a TLM but there are probably many more parishes where there is a desire for either a TLM or a Vatical II Mass (new Missal, prayers in Latin) that is not being met. I have seen many parishes where the Mass schedule doens’t match the parishioner’s desires. One parish near us added a “teen Mass” that is mostly attended by senior citizens yet dropped the early morning, nearly full Mass.

There has to be a balance. Maybe one TLM would be tilting too much to the other side but one Mass per diocese isn’t meeting pastoral need at all. The question is do we exceed the need and take an “if you build it they will come” tact or do we underfill the need (as is being done in many if not all US diocese) and see where the pressure point will be?

 

[Mysty101]

kmktexas:

There has to be a balance. Maybe one TLM would be tilting too much to the other side but one Mass per diocese isn’t meeting pastoral need at all. The question is do we exceed the need and take an “if you build it they will come” tact or do we underfill the need (as is being done in many if not all US diocese) and see where the pressure point will be?

Many Bishops are not supportive of the TLM or Tridentine Mass, but would rather stick with the NO Mass. It is not realistic to think they will go with “if you build it they will come”.

It is also very unlikely that there will be more call for the Latin Masses. If anything there will be less, because of the dissention it causes.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Actually, no, Mysty. At least in my experience it is both younger priests and younger families that want the Tridentine Mass.

That may be more of a reflection on the ethos of the Twin Cities, an area that was earlier than most at trying new “Spirit of Vatican II” novelites, and equally earlier than most at droppng them.

QUESTION: Mysty, why do you feel so strongly that the Tridentine should be discouraged?

QUESTION: If there were enough priests, would you then promote the Tridentine for those who wish it, or would you still discourage it, and if so, why?

Anna

 

[Detroiter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

My 37 year old Pastor celebrates the TLM at the one parish allowed to have it in Detroit. If an Universal Indult was given, perhaps many young priests would be glad to celebrate it.
While I agree with your idea, one TLM per square mile area, could solve the problem as well.

Well Fr.Kosnac hasn’t been in Detroit for the TLM for months. I’m starting to worry if he is still alive. The whole parish misses him.

 

[Detroiter]

Anna Elizabeth:

Actually, no, Mysty. At least in my experience it is both younger priests and younger families that want the Tridentine Mass.

That may be more of a reflection on the ethos of the Twin Cities, an area that was earlier than most at trying new “Spirit of Vatican II” novelites, and equally earlier than most at droppng them.

QUESTION: Mysty, why do you feel so strongly that the Tridentine should be discouraged?

QUESTION: If there were enough priests, would you then promote the Tridentine for those who wish it, or would you still discourage it, and if so, why?

Anna

It’s the same all around the world! In Poland, the UNA VOCE organization’s leaders are all below 35! For those who don’t know, UNA VOCE is an international organization fighting for the TLM.

 

[netmilsmom]

Detroiter:

Well Fr.Kosnac hasn’t been in Detroit for the TLM for months. I’m starting to worry if he is still alive. The whole parish misses him.

Thank the Holy Lord, Fr. Ben is alive and well!
I’m not sure why he has not been downtown but it may be because two of our other priests have been traveling. Having six Holy Masses on Sunday means that someone covers when others are gone.

 

[netmilsmom]

Anna Elizabeth:

At least in my experience it is both younger priests and younger families that want the Tridentine Mass.

Anna

The younger families want, not only the TLM but a more traditional NO!
We have more children as well, so those Post VII innovators will be out of business by the time we are the seniors in our parishes!

 

[Mysty101]

Anna Elizabeth:

Actually, no, Mysty. At least in my experience it is both younger priests and younger families that want the Tridentine Mass.

That is not the case in my area, but I do beleive there is at least one a month within a half hour car ride.

QUESTION: Mysty, why do you feel so strongly that the Tridentine should be discouraged?

I do prefer that the Mass be the same all over, and since it was changed, and not reverted, let it be. I do not like people deciding what is best. This is more the damaging Spirit of Vatican II and it is so funny that the ones who argue against Vatican II are the ones who practice it the most. Before Vatican II you did what you were told, and didn’t argue.

QUESTION: If there were enough priests, would you then promote the Tridentine for those who wish it, or would you still discourage it, and if so, why?

I sort of answered that already, but I really do not discourage anything. I just say we must be certain there are enough Masses to accommodate the obligation before we worry about an indult Mass. And if the Bishop really doesn’t want it, he should be allowed to make that call. When you have people defying a norm to stand for Communion especially when there are no provisions to kneel, I can understand the Bishop’s reluctance to be give into their demands. It is not good to get into the habit of disregarding norms.

 

[fix]

Mysty101:

I can understand the Bishop’s reluctance to be give into their demands. It is not good to get into the habit of disregarding norms.

You mean the bishops disregarding Rome such as responding to the Pope’s call to be generous with the indult.

 

[Mysty101]

fix:

You mean the bishops disregarding Rome such as responding to the Pope’s call to be generous with the indult.

this is a very complicated situation. there is an unenforceable norm, which some choose to disregard, and then wonder why it is difficult to obtain an indult.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Mysty101:

this is a very complicated situation. there is an unenforceable norm, which some choose to disregard, and then wonder why it is difficult to obtain an indult.

Sorry, Mysty, I don’t know what you are getting at. I will try to make my questions more simple.

1.  What's complicated?

 2.  How does disregarding a norm by someone prevent the granting of an indult to other people?

 3.  Is the disregarding of norms somehow less of a problem if perpetrated by enthusiasts of liturgical dance, creative recipes for Eucharistic Hosts or innovative Eucharistic Prayers?  If so, how so?

 4.  Are you sorry that the advice of VII's Sancrosanctum Conciliam (36) re the use of Latin is not more evident in the US?

Hoping for a bit more enlightenment,

Anna

 

[Mysty101]

gotta get now—I’ll try to be more clear later.

 

[Purificator]

Mysty101:

Many Bishops are not supportive of the TLM or Tridentine Mass, but would rather stick with the NO Mass. It is not realistic to think they will go with “if you build it they will come”.

It is also very unlikely that there will be more call for the Latin Masses. If anything there will be less, because of the dissention it causes.

That’s a key point.