Indult Rumor & Modern Architecture

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JM_Pritchett

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Long time reader - first time poster.

If, and I repeat IF, the rumor of an universal indult are true how will recent changes in church architecture affect the Mass?

I ask how the placement of the Mensa, lack of a communion rail (much less step or kneeling area) and the absence of the tabernacle in modern church buildings may affect posture during the TM?

JMP
 
The Parish I go to would need a little extension of the sanctuary area to accomodate a communion rail and a little change around the tabernacle which is in the center of the sanctuary, but that is all.

The Parish I am thinking of switching to has enough space for a communion rail to be added without much effort. Again, there will need be changes around the tabernacle which is in the center of the sanctuary.

As for going to a TLM, I would probably not go.

PF
 
My church is old, and of Gothic-style architecture. Most of the communion rail was left in place, so the gaps would just have to be filled. 🙂
 
This is an excellent question. I think that in the short term, those pastors who are inclined to add the TLM to their parish’s schedule will have to determine whether it is possible to do the TLM at all according to the requirements of 1962. If not, physical changes will need to be budgeted.

In the longer term, the TLM is likely to be updated, and one area is likely to be adapting it to some of the modern architecture.
 
I find this to be an interesting question since the TLM doesn’t require anything but a portable altar or even just a table with an Antimensium. The TLM (low mass) was performed on battlefields, aboard ships and many other places throughout history. The TLM actually takes many forms, but it seems many hear TLM mentioned and the “smells and bells” form is what they think of.

There is the low Mass, the Missa Cantata and then the High Mass (Solemn Mass/Solemn High Mass). If whatever church you attend isn’t set up in the old gothic way, that does not preclude the TLM from being said there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Mass
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Cantata
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Mass

Also keep in mind that besides furniture, there is the missing Deacon and Subdeacon in order to have a High Mass, so at most, you will see a Missa Cantata which is very beautiful, but not quite a High Mass.

Anyway, please don’t be discouraged if your church is round, square, or in a campground, the TLM can be said there.
 
I, for one, would love to receive the Eucharist kneeling. The parish here which has the indult TLM retained its communion rails and uses them even in a NO setting. My cathedral parish was one of the first in the late 60s to adopt modern architecture. We tore out the existing choir loft and then replaced it in 1992. I am a firm believer in the choir not being the center of attraction. I would love to see communion rails returned too.
 
gelsbern said:
I find this to be an interesting question since the TLM doesn’t require anything but a portable altar or even just a table with an Antimensium. The TLM (low mass) was performed on battlefields, aboard ships and many other places throughout history. The TLM actually takes many forms, but it seems many hear TLM mentioned and the “smells and bells” form is what they think of.

There is the low Mass, the Missa Cantata and then the High Mass (Solemn Mass/Solemn High Mass). If whatever church you attend isn’t set up in the old gothic way, that does not preclude the TLM from being said there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Mass
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Cantata
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Mass

Also keep in mind that besides furniture, there is the missing Deacon and Subdeacon in order to have a High Mass, so at most, you will see a Missa Cantata which is very beautiful, but not quite a High Mass.

Anyway, please don’t be discouraged if your church is round, square, or in a campground, the TLM can be said there.
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I was thinking the same thing.

As long as there’s room for a row of people at a time to kneel for the Eucharist and room around the front of the altar for the priest to be ad orientem, it shouldn’t be too difficult.

Most churches have steps or a dais around the sanctuary if not an actual altar rail, and either of these could serve just fine for kneeling communicants.
 
JM_Pritchett said:
Long time reader - first time poster.

If, and I repeat IF, the rumor of an universal indult are true how will recent changes in church architecture affect the Mass?

I ask how the placement of the Mensa, lack of a communion rail (much less step or kneeling area) and the absence of the tabernacle in modern church buildings may affect posture during the TM?

JMP
Click to expand...
Do what happened in the late 60s and early 70s smash and destroy and chuck all onto the rubbish heap regardless of intrinsic beauty or cries from the parishoners!

But oh I want to see the Tabernacle as the focal point in all Catholic churches.
 
Melanie01 said:
Do what happened in the late 60s and early 70s smash and destroy and chuck all onto the rubbish heap regardless of intrinsic beauty or cries from the parishoners!

But oh I want to see the Tabernacle as the focal point in all Catholic churches.
Click to expand...
You need to come to Sydney Mel - most of the churches here, at least in the older more central parts of the city, have kept their beautiful high altars and tabernacles front and centre.
 
LilyM said:
You need to come to Sydney Mel - most of the churches here, at least in the older more central parts of the city, have kept their beautiful high altars and tabernacles front and centre.
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Of course some were retained as you say LilyM but many were treated by barbarians to such a demise.
 
The Church where I occasionally attend the indult doesn’t have an altar rail. No one sits in the front row of pews, and they receive communion there. At another church, they wheel in some kneelers and have a makeshift altar rail. There’s always a way.
 
i know that benedict wants to get the tridentine latin mass more widespred but if this were to happen would certain churches need to get new alters? For instace, what would a parish that does not have the tabernacle on the alter do? what if the possitioning of the alter made it odd looking for the priest to stand with the back facing the people?
 
My parish has the Tridentine Mass every Sunday in the downstairs hall. The Mass is said there even though there is no tabernacle. It’s still said the same.

The Church has pews on four sides, so the priest is always facing part of the congregation and has his back to the other part. We have had Tridentine Masses said there too. It’s a little awkward to be sitting on the side where the priest is looking towards you.

We should have our churches re-done to accomodate the Tridentine Mass, but it wouldn’t be necessary.

I highly doubt the Tridentine Mass will be widespread in the USA. I’m hoping maybe for 5% more parishes to have it. That would be a good start.
 
I think it’s hilarious that some of the very same people who happily ruined churches in the 70s are now whining that architecture doesn’t permit the Tridentine Mass.
 
JM_Pritchett said:
Long time reader - first time poster.

If, and I repeat IF, the rumor of an universal indult are true how will recent changes in church architecture affect the Mass?

I ask how the placement of the Mensa, lack of a communion rail (much less step or kneeling area) and the absence of the tabernacle in modern church buildings may affect posture during the TM?

JMP
Click to expand...
Well if a priest would like to have the TLM at his parish then it would be a great reason to put the altar back somewhat to allow him to celebrate ad orientum and also erect a communion rail.

Anyway as someone who has delt with this situation before in a church that has no communion rail etc., we brought our own portable altar and long kneeling cushions. The priest celebrated Mass ad orientum and we knelt on the floor to receive Holy Communion.

Also, the design of the Sanctuary for the 1962 Mass does allow for an altar without a tabernacle on it.

Since when does the modern rite allow for the removal of the tabernacle from the church?

I also remember seeing a movie of Pope John Paul II who, before he was Pope, celebrated the TLM, Midnight Mass on a makeshift altar in a field on Christmas Eve - and ad orientum yet with no tabernacle.

Ken
 
I think it’s hilarious that some of the very same people who happily ruined churches in the 70s are now whining that architecture doesn’t permit the Tridentine Mass.
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They were trying to burn all bridges in hopes no one could ever go back from where the “Spirit of Vatican II” was supposedly taking us. However, it doesn’t work that way.👍
 
AlexV said:
I think it’s hilarious that some of the very same people who happily ruined churches in the 70s are now whining that architecture doesn’t permit the Tridentine Mass.
Click to expand...
What is the purpose of this comment? It does not treat upon the original post and then goes on to treat the serious subject of the destruciton of sacred architecture with a humorless dropping of sarcasm.

May we please keep on the topic? If the Mass is to be made available then the important question of form and space must be addressed. Some have written that it can be said on the fly. While this is true do we not want Mass said in a reverent space? What do others think?
 
JM_Pritchett said:
What is the purpose of this comment? It does not treat upon the original post and then goes on to treat the serious subject of the destruciton of sacred architecture with a humorless dropping of sarcasm.

May we please keep on the topic? If the Mass is to be made available then the important question of form and space must be addressed. Some have written that it can be said on the fly. While this is true do we not want Mass said in a reverent space? What do others think?
Click to expand...
Thank you. This is one of the top 10 posts ever placed on this forum.

Well done.👍
 
“Sarcasm”…which has a noble lineage in the best of ROMAN traditions…is a useful rhetorical device when facing liturgical realities in some locales:
  1. Can we have a Tridentine Mass?
No, the church architecture doesn’t allow it.
  1. Why did you change the architecture?
We lied and said “Vatican II” required it, even though not a word in a single document required what we did.
  1. Can we change the architecture back?
Of course not.
  1. So can we have a Tridentine Mass in this parish?
No.
 
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