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fix
Guest
I would say intentional drunkeness is grave matter . It is intentionally diminishing free will.
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llowwelll
Guest
PenitentMan,
My brother, I’m not sure that you’re doing this, but Iet me gently caution you to avoid becoming legalistic in your quest to determine whether or not drunkenness is a mortal sin.
The Catechism, in explaining mortal and venial sin, says “venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.” (CCC 1863) However, Galatians 5:21 explains that those who engage in drunkenness “shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” If venial sin does not deprive the sinner of eternal happiness, then Galatians 5:21 would establish that drunkenness is not a venial sin because it leads to banishment from eternal life with God: it’s a mortal sin.
The point is, though, that drunkenness is sinful. If it’s “only” a venial sin, does that mean you can go ahead and do it? Our faith in God is what guides us. That faith is not a legal system with regulations and subsections. We should not act as though we are lawyers trying to discover loopholes that allow us worldly pleasures or avoid legal traps that might land us in the can. We are called to live a live of faith. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in their legal system:
Matthew 12:10-12
10 And behold there was a man who had a withered hand, and they asked him, saying: Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 But he said to them: What man shall there be among you, that hath one sheep: and if the same fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not take hold on it and lift it up?
12 How much better is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do a good deed on the sabbath days.
We should not be the Pharisees of today. We should place our faith in God and in His Word and live according to it.
My brother, I’m not sure that you’re doing this, but Iet me gently caution you to avoid becoming legalistic in your quest to determine whether or not drunkenness is a mortal sin.
The Catechism, in explaining mortal and venial sin, says “venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.” (CCC 1863) However, Galatians 5:21 explains that those who engage in drunkenness “shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” If venial sin does not deprive the sinner of eternal happiness, then Galatians 5:21 would establish that drunkenness is not a venial sin because it leads to banishment from eternal life with God: it’s a mortal sin.
The point is, though, that drunkenness is sinful. If it’s “only” a venial sin, does that mean you can go ahead and do it? Our faith in God is what guides us. That faith is not a legal system with regulations and subsections. We should not act as though we are lawyers trying to discover loopholes that allow us worldly pleasures or avoid legal traps that might land us in the can. We are called to live a live of faith. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in their legal system:
Matthew 12:10-12
10 And behold there was a man who had a withered hand, and they asked him, saying: Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 But he said to them: What man shall there be among you, that hath one sheep: and if the same fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not take hold on it and lift it up?
12 How much better is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do a good deed on the sabbath days.
We should not be the Pharisees of today. We should place our faith in God and in His Word and live according to it.
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PennitentMan
Guest
In your *opinion *though.
Please don’t mistake my inquisitiveness for angry debating, I just do not think that we can form opinions and then from there tell a person that he is in a state or mortal sin, cut off from God untill his next confession.
That would make us protestants, and make the Catechism void.
Hence my search for answers from the magiszterium labelling it grave matter.
In Christ,
PM
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PennitentMan
Guest
I fully agree with you, and I have stated this in one my posts also.
I agree that it is definately sinfull and should be avioded wherever possible, but we cannot, by our own authority label something as Grave Matter when the Magisteium of the Church has not made it one.
That is protestantism.
I’m definately not trying to be a pharisee, I’m trying to help Lampo from being judged and condemmed by his peers through their opinions.
We are all given free will and we should follow Christ as best we could. That includes not getting drunk where we can avoid it.
However, Birthdays, Stress factors, ect…there are several factors and occasions where you will be drunk at the end of an evening. That doesn’t meant that if I die that night, I’m going to hell, if I didn’t endanger my or my friends/familiy’s lives.
See what I’m trying to say?
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HailMary
Guest
Is taking crack a grave matter? The Church has not explicitly spoken on crack or pcp but we all know that, just like excessive drinking, it destroys the Image of God in us and destroys our Bodies, which are Temples of the Holy Spirit.
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fix
Guest
Here is a link to the works of Fr. Most. He was a holy and loyal priest. He was a scholar as well:
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HailMary
Guest
I argue that the “losing the Image of God in your mind” AND " the ability to think and make judgments is gravely damaged" are effectively the same statement since it is REASON that separates us from all other creation. And reason is the victim alcohol abuse (not only the body and self respect).
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PennitentMan
Guest
Sure, but we are not talking about highly addictive substances here.
Fix’s Quote is pretty good, good enough for me.
“If he is not such (edit) an alcoholic, or addicted person to whatever substance], but merely drinks to excess at times, but can drink moderately when he wishes, we do not impose a grave obligation of giving up all drink.”
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fix
Guest
I agree. It is a mortal sin. It diminishes free will intentionally.
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llowwelll
Guest
PenitentMan,
It seems to me that you are looking for a list somewhere that specifically enumerates each and every mortal sin. The Church does not have one as far as I know. It would be impossible to list each and every circumstance of sin and whether it is mortal or venial. God wants us to act in faith toward Him. The bottom line is that drunkenness is a sin. To me, the statement in Galatians 5 taken together with what the Catechism has to say convinces me that drunkenness is a mortal sin. However, it doesn’t convince you and I’m okay with that. If you see it as simply a venial sin, does that mean you also believe that it’s okay to go ahead and do it because you don’t have to attend confession to be in a state of grace afterward? It seems pretty easy to me: drunkenness is sinful…don’t do it.
God gave us free will to act on our faith. Free will implies choice. I’m troubled by your statement: “However, Birthdays, Stress factors, etc…there are several factors and occasions where you will be drunk at the end of an evening.” This is simply not the case. There is no occasion (short of a gun being held to your head) “where you will be drunk at the end of an evening” if you do not choose to be (I won’t get into a discussion on addiction here). As Christians, we have one Master, and that is God our Father. God our Father gave us free will so that we can choose Him. Choosing Him and believing in Him also means that we follow His commandments.
It seems to me that you are looking for a list somewhere that specifically enumerates each and every mortal sin. The Church does not have one as far as I know. It would be impossible to list each and every circumstance of sin and whether it is mortal or venial. God wants us to act in faith toward Him. The bottom line is that drunkenness is a sin. To me, the statement in Galatians 5 taken together with what the Catechism has to say convinces me that drunkenness is a mortal sin. However, it doesn’t convince you and I’m okay with that. If you see it as simply a venial sin, does that mean you also believe that it’s okay to go ahead and do it because you don’t have to attend confession to be in a state of grace afterward? It seems pretty easy to me: drunkenness is sinful…don’t do it.
God gave us free will to act on our faith. Free will implies choice. I’m troubled by your statement: “However, Birthdays, Stress factors, etc…there are several factors and occasions where you will be drunk at the end of an evening.” This is simply not the case. There is no occasion (short of a gun being held to your head) “where you will be drunk at the end of an evening” if you do not choose to be (I won’t get into a discussion on addiction here). As Christians, we have one Master, and that is God our Father. God our Father gave us free will so that we can choose Him. Choosing Him and believing in Him also means that we follow His commandments.
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PennitentMan
Guest
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HailMary
Guest
Alcohol can be addicting but I was just trying to make a point.
Here is a good examination of Conscience:
catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf
God Bless
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PennitentMan
Guest
Thanks for the link
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llowwelll
Guest
I just had to comment on your caveat of “whenever possible” in your statement “don’t do it.”Agreed.
Don’t do it wherever possible, it’s a sin and God is opposed to Sin.
Besides my previously mentioned cases of a gun being held to your head or addiction, when is it not possible to avoid drunkenness? If you would claim that work stress or social pressure cause it to not be possible to avoid drunkenness, then I would remind you that God’s call is not an easy one.
Matthew 7:13
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Simply because it is difficult to avoid the pressure and the tendency to sin does not mean that we will be held less accountable.
Luke 9:23
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
This is what Pope John Paul II had to say about Luke 9:23:
These words denote the radicality of a choice that does not allow for hesitation or second thoughts. It is a demanding requirement that unsettled even the disciples and that, throughout the ages, has held back many men and women from following Christ.
I’ll let John Paul II’s words stand for themself. I won’t even try to improve on them.
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PennitentMan
Guest
I see that more and more each day…This is not a life of pleasure. Not at all. It’a life of suffering. Some days it’s very, very hard for me to live this life of suffering. Sometimes the end goal seems far away and out of sight. I trust in God that He will welcome me home at the end and do my best through this “Vale of Tears.”
True, we will be held accountable for every action, I do not disagree at all, but the OP was to distinguish between Venial and Mortal Sin.
God is just and loving and fair.
Again, this is very true, there is no question that drunkedness is a sin, just if it’s Grave Matter or not.
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llowwelll
Guest
Yes, PennitentMan, sometimes it is very hard. Sometimes I struggle to go on also. You are in my prayers. :hug3:
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dylanschrader
Guest
It sounds like by “will ope(sic)” you mean “have opened” and by “a bottle” you mean “three bottles.”Today is my Birthday. I have been invited around a friends
for a meal. They will ope a bottle of wine and I will hve a whisey or two
…]
Today is my Birthday. I have been invited arounda friens for a meal. I bootle of wine later follwed by glass of whiskey
In moderation ‘no’ I would not thnk it does any harm
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dulcissima
Guest
I think it is easy to see why it could be a grave matter when becoming inebriated is an escape from your repsonsibilities and your reality. I was married to an alcoholic, and sometimes it did seem like it would be tempting to escape my reality. I only needed to look at my husband though and know that I did not want to be like him, and then look at my kids and see how much they needed me to be there for them, then that means of dealing (or rather not dealing) with reality didn’t seem like it would be at all a right decision.
I guess what I am saying is that the surrounding circumstances to the drinking could make the difference in the gravity of the sin.
I guess what I am saying is that the surrounding circumstances to the drinking could make the difference in the gravity of the sin.
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jman507
Guest
Does this mean Jesus might have been guilty of putting others in the near occasion to sin at the Wedding of Cana?
I think as it was said earlier, the term drunk is vague. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Drinking alcohol in itself is not a sin. It must be put in the context of the place, the intention, the amount. I guess as far as it being the West’s curse, everything that is a blessing can also be a curse, once skewed from the good.
I think as it was said earlier, the term drunk is vague. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Drinking alcohol in itself is not a sin. It must be put in the context of the place, the intention, the amount. I guess as far as it being the West’s curse, everything that is a blessing can also be a curse, once skewed from the good.
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Jay2
Guest
I’m not as think as you drunk I am.
As long as the only person that hurts the morning after is YOU, it might be OK. (stretch this line of thought as far as it’ll go… hurt myself, God, Jesus, family,)
As long as the only person that hurts the morning after is YOU, it might be OK. (stretch this line of thought as far as it’ll go… hurt myself, God, Jesus, family,)
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