Inerrant Bible?

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In his book “Misquoting Jesus” Bart Ehrman posits, among others, that the transcription of the Bible across several timescales and by countless scribes produced a horrendous level of scribal errors such that it can be anything but “inerrant”. Among his assertions: There are more differences among different manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. This makes the present day Bible far from the original words that were recorded and what Jesus actually said. Because of this he contends that the only way to correct this anomaly is to resort to what Bible scholars term as “textual criticism” - which is basically reconstructing the words of the Bible from the original words that were actually said. In short, Ehrman concludes that the present day Bible is not inerrant.
Question:
Does this support or go against the platforms of Catholic Church Magisterium?
 
In his book “Misquoting Jesus” Bart Ehrman posits, among others, that the transcription of the Bible across several timescales and by countless scribes produced a horrendous level of scribal errors such that it can be anything but “inerrant”. Among his assertions: There are more differences among different manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. This makes the present day Bible far from the original words that were recorded and what Jesus actually said. Because of this he contends that the only way to correct this anomaly is to resort to what Bible scholars term as “textual criticism” - which is basically reconstructing the words of the Bible from the original words that were actually said. In short, Ehrman concludes that the present day Bible is not inerrant.
Question:
Does this support or go against the platforms of Catholic Church Magisterium?
The Bible is inerrant because the Church says so, so THERE, nyah nyah.

Oops, sorry…

Erhman is evidently one of those Jesus Seminar types so a good rule of thumb is to regard his offerings as utter balderdash, completely ignore what he says and move on. The “scholarship” of those guys is anything but. Erhman’s version of “textual criticism” is to true textual criticism what the Jehovah’s Witnesses is to Christianity.

A great book which deflates the swelled heads of the self-important Jesus Seminar types is Mark Shea’s By What Authority. A thoroughly Catholic book and a very easy read. I enjoy Mark Shea even more than Scott Hahn.

Peace,
+N
 
In his book “Misquoting Jesus” Bart Ehrman posits, among others, that the transcription of the Bible across several timescales and by countless scribes produced a horrendous level of scribal errors such that it can be anything but “inerrant”. Among his assertions: There are more differences among different manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. This makes the present day Bible far from the original words that were recorded and what Jesus actually said. Because of this he contends that the only way to correct this anomaly is to resort to what Bible scholars term as “textual criticism” - which is basically reconstructing the words of the Bible from the original words that were actually said. In short, Ehrman concludes that the present day Bible is not inerrant.
Question:
Does this support or go against the platforms of Catholic Church Magisterium?
If he says both, this makes little to no sense. First he claims that the manuscripts as we have them are inadequate to know anything about Jesus, and then he claims that we must use these same manuscripts to find out what Jesus, ‘actually said.’

Historical and textual criticism are not bad things, but should be employed to find out as best as possible what the autograph (original) copies of of the NT contained. This is done, and is very helpful is reconciling differences in manuscripts as they have come down to us. If there are two different textual witnesses to a passage, we must ultimately decide which is the authentic, or at least, the more authentic one.

This cannot harm the Catholic Church’s view of biblical inerrancy because inerrancy applies to the autograph texts. The Church does think we have substantially the original texts, though.

On the other hand, once we’ve ascertained what the NT texts said originally, as best as possible, trying to find out whether the historical Jesus, “really said” them is much more suspect, and is completely susceptible to the philosophy which the person employing the method holds. The, “first quest” for the historical Jesus did this, rather infamously. They interpreted the Scriptures through their liberal Protestant Enlightenment view, and strangely enough found a liberal Enlightenment Protestant in Jesus! Albert Schweitzer critiqued them on exactly this point, for their Jesuses always matched their philosophy.

Nevertheless, historical criticism is not bad, but has to be used responsibly. One must ground historical criticism in historical study and not forget to interpret Jesus in context of His time period, and not our time period. There is respectable historical critical method these days-- look at N.T. Wright.

As to whether we have the Bible resembling its original texts-- I’d say so. Most variants are irrelevant or tiny variants. Relatively few of them are big differences. I’ve seen Protestant apologist J.P. Holding treat this issue, and, quite frankly, we have rather fantastic textual evidence for the New Testament, esp. as compared to most ancient texts.

-Rob
 
Yeah, apparently God is not powerful enough to make sure people copied what He said correctly. I have had college professors, who graded people on their classroom notes, with more power than this guy allows God to have.
 
I am still waiting for interlibrary loan on this book, but if you can affoard it, it may be worth a read,

Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus By: Timothy Paul Jones

Product Description:

One of the problems of living in a non-discerning culture is the fact that everything gets put on the same level. Christian books share the same ‘Religion’ shelf with anti-Christian and cultic material. Such is the situation where books like Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus can gain a foothold and credence with readers. Published by a popular secular publishing house, Ehrman gets no true peer review for his writings, trading that for a media machine to sell his unvetted writings to an unsuspecting audience that doesn’t anticipate a spiritual assault.

Strangely enough, Timothy Paul Jones (Christian History Made Easy) welcomes this, and his book, although a thorough and deep refutation of Ehrman’s faulty logic and conclusions, rather takes the tack of lauding Ehrman for creating something that encourages ordinary people to think about faith in critical ways. Jones just wants to give those individuals the rest of the story Ehrman started to tell.

Adequately countering the criticisms Ehrman levels at Christianity in his books, Misquoting Truth goes back to the faulty premises, dismantles them and rebuilds them with fact rather than speculation, then supports the historical faith with humor, warmth and good, solid analytical investigation.

christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?isbn=0830834478&event=AFF&p=1022507

👍
 
I would just like to point out to the original poster that Bart Ehrman, and all non-Christian liberal Biblical hypothesists, have the life expectancy of a normal human being, and their hypotheses (for they’re hardly proven “theories”) last even shorter than that since such hypotheses are more the product of post-modernism than a true intellectual or spiritual pursuit.

The Church has, thank God, persisted throughout the past 2000 years and has consistently and perpetually taught the same truths regarding Scripture. But it’s not just some organization which is cramming information down our throats. No, instead, men and women of the Church are the ones who have consistently and perpetually proven the inerrancy of Scripture for no other reason than faith, hope, and love - which is a far greater feat than Mr. Ehrman debunking the Bible as part of his career.
 
Thanks to Rob’s and the rest of posters’ (name removed by moderator)uts on the value of textual and historical criticisms. My impression is that this branch of knowledge is not very popular among Catholic readers. I hardly see any posts in this site (I might have missed it?) about this kind of pursuit.
 
Thanks to Rob’s and the rest of posters’ (name removed by moderator)uts on the value of textual and historical criticisms. My impression is that this branch of knowledge is not very popular among Catholic readers. I hardly see any posts in this site (I might have missed it?) about this kind of pursuit.
While some Christians (and not just Catholics) fear textual/historical criticism because it may cause them to re-evaluate what they previously believed, I wouldn’t say this branch of knowledge is unpopular among Catholic readers. To the contrary, several popes have reiterated the need for textual/historical criticism in order to fully understand Scripture. For example, we earn and learn nothing from reading Scripture if we think of Christ as living in 18th century Victorian England; instead, we have to learn about his life in 1st century Roman-controlled Palestine. However, the moment textual/historical criticism begins making statements like, “Judas was not a real individual” or “The resurrection most likely never occurred,” then we, as Catholics and Protestants, need to draw the line simply because the teaching authority of the Church (as supported by hundreds of Church Fathers) has taught the contrary unshakenly for hundreds of years.

It’s not that Catholics avoid textual/historical criticism, yet when so much of it is about asserting the latest hypothesis and scoring big in the publishing houses and not about an honest pursuit of truth (as called for by the popes) then it’s no surprise that many Christians, Catholics and Protestants, should wish to save their energy for reading something more worthwhile.
 
…This makes the present day Bible far from the original words that were recorded and what Jesus actually said…Does this support or go against the platforms of Catholic Church Magisterium?
An interesting read on this (available online) is the *Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels by the *Pontifical Biblical Commission (April 21, 1964). The following is from an analysis of this document by Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J.:

“The most significant thing in the whole document, when all is said and done, is that the Biblical Commission calmly and frankly admits that what is contained in the Gospels as we have them today is not the words and deeds of Jesus in the first stage of tradition, nor even the form in which they were preached in the second stage, but only in the form compiled and edited by the Evangelists.”

Another direct reference on this subject is the book “Biblical Fundamentalism: What Every Catholic Should Know” by Ronald Witherup, S.S.
 
Thanks to Rob’s and the rest of posters’ (name removed by moderator)uts on the value of textual and historical criticisms. My impression is that this branch of knowledge is not very popular among Catholic readers. I hardly see any posts in this site (I might have missed it?) about this kind of pursuit.
There have been a number of lengthy discussions on this, with many references to the papal documents which encouraged its use such as Divino Afflante Spiritu and Dei Verbum. Also there are discussions of Raymond Brown’s works. There is considerable disagreement concerning this subject and those on this forum who speak in favor of it tend to be in the minority - but that is not necessarily representative of the church.
 
An interesting read on this (available online) is the *Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels by the *Pontifical Biblical Commission (April 21, 1964). The following is from an analysis of this document by Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J.:

“The most significant thing in the whole document, when all is said and done, is that the Biblical Commission calmly and frankly admits that what is contained in the Gospels as we have them today is not the words and deeds of Jesus in the first stage of tradition, nor even the form in which they were preached in the second stage, but only in the form compiled and edited by the Evangelists.”

Another direct reference on this subject is the book “Biblical Fundamentalism: What Every Catholic Should Know” by Ronald Witherup, S.S.
The implication from your post is that the Pontifical Biblical Commission authorized this review by the Jesuit Priest. It did not.

As has happened before, patg has provided an out of context quote.

Here is a link the the Document:
*Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels *

And here is Father Fitzmyer’s analysis

Finally, the book he referenced, Biblical Fundamentalism: What Every Catholic Should Know, promotes a moderninst approach and has some seriouis theological defects, such as claiming the Catholic teaches that the Bible contains errors.
 
There have been a number of lengthy discussions on this, with many references to the papal documents which encouraged its use such as Divino Afflante Spiritu and Dei Verbum. Also there are discussions of Raymond Brown’s works. There is considerable disagreement concerning this subject and those on this forum who speak in favor of it tend to be in the minority - but that is not necessarily representative of the church.
I would strongly discourage anyone who is not strong in their faith from reading anything by Raymond Brown. That includes the commentary he wrote in some editions of the NAB.
 
The implication from your post is that the Pontifical Biblical Commission authorized this review by the Jesuit Priest. It did not.
You are assuming an implication which is not incorrect. Referencing one of the most recognized Catholic bible scholars doesn’t need to “imply” anything. And just how does the “authorization” detract from such an emminent scholar’s analysis?
As has happened before, patg has provided an out of context quote.
Oh, you are right! I should have used the original document since it is even stronger! Here is the text of the document:

For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order,* and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.”*
Finally, the book he referenced, Biblical Fundamentalism: What Every Catholic Should Know, promotes a moderninst approach and has some seriouis theological defects, such as claiming the Catholic teaches that the Bible contains errors.
Perhaps you missed the imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat? Oh, I know how easy it is for some to ignore those or belittle them as not really meaning anything when they go against their pre-Dei Verbum understanding but they are significant.

I am sorry you have such a negative opinion and make such a gross out-of-context generalization. This is an excellent book which should be a part of every Catholic’s bible study library. Another important work is “And God Said What” by Margaret Ralph.
 
You are assuming an implication which is not incorrect. Referencing one of the most recognized Catholic bible scholars doesn’t need to “imply” anything. And just how does the “authorization” detract from such an emminent scholar’s analysis?

Oh, you are right! I should have used the original document since it is even stronger! Here is the text of the document:

For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order,* and express his sayings not* literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.”

Perhaps you missed the imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat? Oh, I know how easy it is for some to ignore those or belittle them as not really meaning anything when they go against their pre-Dei Verbum understanding but they are significant.

I am sorry you have such a negative opinion and make such a gross out-of-context generalization. This is an excellent book which should be a part of every Catholic’s bible study library. Another important work is “And God Said What” by Margaret Ralph.
Yep! Typical Patg. If you disagree with him, you are negative, and make gross generalizations.
 
I would strongly discourage anyone who is not strong in their faith from reading anything by Raymond Brown. That includes the commentary he wrote in some editions of the NAB.
And I would strongly encourage everyone interested in scripture analysis to read everything by Raymond Brown. That includes the commentary he wrote in some editions of the NAB. I’d also add John Meier, Joseph Fitzmyer, and Margaret Ralph.
 
And I would strongly encourage everyone interested in scripture analysis to read everything by Raymond Brown. That includes the commentary he wrote in some editions of the NAB. I’d also add John Meier, Joseph Fitzmyer, and Margaret Ralph.
But only if you want to be an apostate or want to see how an apostate thinks.
 
Yep! Typical Patg. If you disagree with him, you are negative,
Hmmmm - I didn’t say you were negative at all - I merely said that I was sorry you had such a negative opinion of a book I really like. Others here must like it also as this is where I learned about it.
and make gross generalizations.
Okay, so I should have just said unsupported generalizations. At least I mentioned the imprimatur and *Nihil Obstat. *The alleged “moderninst approach with some serious theological defects” is an opinion you are entitled to but which I strongly disagree with (and it is quite a generalization). The comment “such as claiming the Catholic teaches that the Bible contains errors” is, of course, taken out of context - an action you have been so quick to point out in others.
 
But only if you want to be an apostate or want to see how an apostate thinks.
Really? Popes appoint apostates to the Pontifical Biblical Commission (twice)? Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats are given to the writings of apostates? Books by apostates are used as the textbooks in many catholic adult education classes? Divino Afflante Spiritu and Dei Verbum were written by apostates?

What are you trying to say? It is OK to disagree and I support that right but at some point we have to look at what the church and its popes and scholars are saying to us.
 
Of the 150,000 textual variations, most are orthographic, or that is misspellings of terms. Westcott and Hort showed in 1881 that most of the “errors” in the Gospel were nothing more than misspellings or variants; only 60 legitimate, and of those 60, only 7 were found to be “primitive errors.” This means that the Gospels would be 98.33 percent pure.

Yes, from the late 1st century to at least the mid 2nd there was rampant forgery and change of Scripture to suit various theological and doctrinal positions. The most famous example of this would be the illegitimate Markan ending, and maybe the adultress in John, but the structure of the New Testament in both sayings and narration CANNOT and IS NOT undermined by manuscript evidence. The only thing that would undermine that is if the Q-Markan priority theory and the sort are shown to be the most likely thing that happened in the composition of the Gospels. For the record Erhman is a myther, so he shouldn’t even be payed more than enough attention to anyway.
 
In his book “Misquoting Jesus” Bart Ehrman posits, among others, that the transcription of the Bible across several timescales and by countless scribes produced a horrendous level of scribal errors such that it can be anything but “inerrant”. Among his assertions: There are more differences among different manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. This makes the present day Bible far from the original words that were recorded and what Jesus actually said. Because of this he contends that the only way to correct this anomaly is to resort to what Bible scholars term as “textual criticism” - which is basically reconstructing the words of the Bible from the original words that were actually said. In short, Ehrman concludes that the present day Bible is not inerrant.
Question:
Does this support or go against the platforms of Catholic Church Magisterium?

Textual criticism of some sort has been used by Jews & Christians for centuries - St. Jerome being among them.​

Textual criticism on scientific principles is a commonplace of work on the Biblical text among Protestants, Catholics & Jews. It’s very difficult to think of a modern edition or translation of the Bible in part or whole that does not rely on it, from the 1969 Vulgate to the 27th edition of the United Bible Societies Greek NT, or the 1985 Tanakh, the 1970 NAB, or the 1970 NEB.

The legitimacy of textual criticism is a completely different issue from the question of the extent of the corruption of the text. They should not be confused.

Ehrman is proposing nothing usual - textual criticism, and the tools it employs, is the proper method to deal with the corruptions & other difficulties in the written form of the text. Just as it is with the Fathers, or the Greek & Latin authors. There is nothing unusual about the NT texts as written documents - they have undergone the same troubles as any others of their age. But most people are ignorant of the Greek & Roman Classics, so they look at the NT in isolation.

As for reconstructing the words actually said - that is often simply not possible. The Gospels & Acts are not direct reporting of who said what to whom, but theological documents which show how the events described were seen by the composers of the documents. That’s why the Jesus of Matthew is not the pre-existent Word of John, but the Davidic Messiah instead. The theological ideas which are the frameworks into which the contents of the gospels are fitted, differ - though the principal Character, is the same. 🙂 What He said word for word, is not always recoverable - what we do have, is the substance of His teaching: & perhaps even more important, the Spirit Whom He gave to His Church so that His teaching would have its effect.

So although textual criticism can help in getting decently close to what was written, that is not the same as giving the reader what was described & said - because between the reader, & what happened, come
  • the tradition of what happened &
  • what the authors of the gospels made of that tradition
    FWIW, none of this affects the inspiration of the NT. As for inerrancy: that is, again, a different issue. It’s not irrelevant to, but neither is it the same as, those mentioned.
These may help:
 
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