Inerrant Vulgate: Vatican or Clementine?

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I’m starting (slowly) to read the Vulgate but was wondering which Vulgate is considered inerrant.

Vatican Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit.

Clementine Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam: unigenitus Filius, qui est in sinu Patris, ipse enarravit

Vatican Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius; ipsum conteret
caput tuum, et tu conteres calcaneum eius”.

Clementine Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret
caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus

both differences, ‘Filius/Deus’ and ‘ipsum/ipsa’ as far as I know are not insignificant.
also, is there another name for the ‘Vatican Vulgate’ ?

thanks
 
I’m starting (slowly) to read the Vulgate but was wondering which Vulgate is considered inerrant.

Vatican Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit.

Clementine Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam: unigenitus Filius, qui est in sinu Patris, ipse enarravit

Vatican Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius; ipsum conteret
caput tuum, et tu conteres calcaneum eius”.

Clementine Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret
caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus

both differences, ‘Filius/Deus’ and ‘ipsum/ipsa’ as far as I know are not insignificant.
also, is there another name for the ‘Vatican Vulgate’ ?

thanks
If you are referring to the one the Vatican’s website. It is called the Nova Vulgata. Beware there is a “Vulgate” out there called “Biblia Sacra Vulgata” this isn’t approved by the Catholic Church and was translated by Protestants. Many websites including www.drbo.org use it. The Nova Vulgata, which is what the Vatican has used since 1979 can be found here vatican.va/ The Clementine Vulgate was used from 1592-1979 and can be found here. vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/index.html
Other site that use the Biblia Sacra Vulgata are latinvulgate.com/, and should be avoided. I do however recomend drbo.org for the Douay-Rheims though
 
If you are referring to the one the Vatican’s website. It is called the Nova Vulgata. Beware there is a “Vulgate” out there called “Biblia Sacra Vulgata” this isn’t approved by the Catholic Church and was translated by Protestants. Many websites including www.drbo.org use it. The Nova Vulgata, which is what the Vatican has used since 1979 can be found here vatican.va/ The Clementine Vulgate was used from 1592-1979 and can be found here. vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/index.html
Other site that use the Biblia Sacra Vulgata are latinvulgate.com/, and should be avoided. I do however recomend drbo.org for the Douay-Rheims though
// really??? i was thinking on purchasing Biblia Sacra Vulgata, but was not sure if it was the original or what…

// curiously, how do you know that it was translated by protestants???
 
// really??? i was thinking on purchasing Biblia Sacra Vulgata, but was not sure if it was the original or what…

// curiously, how do you know that it was translated by protestants???
The committee that translated it is a well known German Bible Society. Since Germany is mostly Protestant, most biblical societies are Protestant. There are not declarations of any kind by the Catholic Church. No Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat
 
No particular edition of the Bible is necessarily free from translation or editorial or printing errors. The inerrancy of Scripture is above the particulars of any one edition.

The Neo-Vulgate (on the vatican.va website) does have some translation/editing errors.
Example:

[1 Timothy 2]
{2:11} Mulier in **silentio **discat cum omni subiectione.
{2:11} Let a woman learn in **silence **with all subjection.

{2:12} Docere autem mulieri non permitto, neque dominari in virum: sed esse in silentio.
{2:12} For I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to be in authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Neo Vulgate:
11 Mulier in **tranquillitate **discat cum omni subiectione;
12 docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum, sed esse in tranquillitate.

Silence is changed to tranquility, apparently due to the influence of modern secular society.
 
Ron Conte: What is the best version of the Vulgate ever? Is the Clementine really the best? Is it possible to improve it?

Have we learned anything in the year’s since that would suggest that other possible words than the ones it used are more authenticaly in the Vulgate tradition?

While there is no way to know since we do not have an original manuscript penned by St. Jerome–speculate–how would the Cementine Vulgate and what St. Jerome originally penned differ if any?

Ron Conte: I know you have some issues with the Nova Vulgata so let me ask this: if you had been absolutely in charge of the project that resulted in the Nova Vulgata how would you have done it?

Do you think that there would have been a way to more accurately come up with what St. Jerome originally wrote?

Or do you think that the Vulgate tradition doesn’t necessarily have to be exactly what St. Jerome wrote?

What is more important to find out about the Vulgate–what St. Jerome originally wrote or what the authentic tradition of the Vulgate was at the time of Trent?

I ask these questions not to argue–I don’t know the answqers to these questions.

Exactly how different do you think the Vulgate is from what the original writers of scripture wrote?
 
I’m starting (slowly) to read the Vulgate but was wondering which Vulgate is considered inerrant.
Vatican Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit.

Clementine Vulgate
John 1.18 Deum nemo vidit umquam: unigenitus Filius, qui est in sinu Patris, ipse enarravit

Vatican Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius; ipsum conteret
caput tuum, et tu conteres calcaneum eius”.

Clementine Vulgate
Gen 3.15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret
caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus
both differences, ‘Filius/Deus’ and ‘ipsum/ipsa’ as far as I know are not insignificant.
also, is there another name for the ‘Vatican Vulgate’ ?

thanks

No edition of the Vulgate is or was inerrant - the issue is whether any of those is or was authentic & authoritative (as Pius XII explained in 1943, in Divino Afflante Spiritu): IOW, we’re dealing with a matter of law, not of doctrine. The 1979 neo-Vulgata, which reads “ipsum”, is now the Bible of the Latin Rite. As for the reading, it is accurate: it represents the Hebrew correctly - “ipsa” was a scribal error which found its way into the text; it is not the correct reading, & it is not a correct translation, & the Clementine Vulgate of 1592 (which included it because it used sources that included it) is no longer the Latin Bible used by the Latin Church & Rite.​

 

No edition of the Vulgate is or was inerrant - the issue is whether any of those is or was authentic & authoritative (as Pius XII explained in 1943, in Divino Afflante Spiritu): IOW, we’re dealing with a matter of law, not of doctrine. The 1979 neo-Vulgata, which reads “ipsum”, is now the Bible of the Latin Rite. As for the reading, it is accurate: it represents the Hebrew correctly - “ipsa” was a scribal error which found its way into the text; it is not the correct reading, & it is not a correct translation, & the Clementine Vulgate of 1592 (which included it because it used sources that included it) is no longer the Latin Bible used by the Latin Church & Rite.​

It is not tenable to hold that ipsa is an error. The Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus cites that verse as referring to Mary crushing the head of the evil serpant.

“and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot.”
(Ineffabilis Deus)

Also, the 1590, 92, 93, 98 editions of the Vulgate, by Pope Sixtus V and Pope Clement VIII all have ipsa, not ipsum.

{3:15} Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius.
{3:15} I will put enmities between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring. **She **will crush your head, and you will lie in wait for her heel.”

Both ipsa (referring to Mary) and ipsum (referring to Christ) are correct in this verse.
 
What is the best version of the Vulgate ever? Is the Clementine really the best? Is it possible to improve it?

1598 Clementine is best so far; yes, it can be improved – see my attempt here:
sacredbible.org/vulgate2009/index.htm

Have we learned anything in the year’s since that would suggest that other possible words than the ones it used are more authenticaly in the Vulgate tradition?
Learned from where? We have had the full Sacred Deposit of Faith from the time of Christ to the present. Certainly, some verses may be understood more clearly as time passes, but corrections or edits that presume to add to, subtract from, or change Scripture are not permissible.

While there is no way to know since we do not have an original manuscript penned by St. Jerome–speculate–how would the Cementine Vulgate and what St. Jerome originally penned differ if any?
Very substantially the same, but with numerous small contribuations from other persons over many centuries. The contributions would clarify the text, but not add, subtract, or change any of the truths.

I know you have some issues with the Nova Vulgata so let me ask this: if you had been absolutely in charge of the project that resulted in the Nova Vulgata how would you have done it?
As a light edit of the Clementine; see my own edit.

Do you think that there would have been a way to more accurately come up with what St. Jerome originally wrote?
We should not try to recapture Jeromes version, but to transmit to each generation exactly what was revealed when the books were written. Successive edits and translations can clarify, but they cannot add, subtract, or change.

Or do you think that the Vulgate tradition doesn’t necessarily have to be exactly what St. Jerome wrote?
That’s right.

What is more important to find out about the Vulgate–what St. Jerome originally wrote or what the authentic tradition of the Vulgate was at the time of Trent?
Neither, the original books in the truths that they present (not exactly the same letters in exactly the same order in the same language) must be transmitted.

Exactly how different do you think the Vulgate is from what the original writers of scripture wrote?
Any differences that do not pertain to the truths being taught, on both levels of meaning, are not relevant. We don’t need the original manuscripts so that we have the right letters in the right order; we need the truths as expressed in any language or in all languages.
 
Since Germany is mostly Protestant, most biblical societies are Protestant.
I’m not going to debate the merits of the particular Bible Society – but even during the Reformation, there were many German principalities who remained Catholic; there continued to be a strong Catholic presence in Germany; and there remains a strong Catholic presence in Germany.

I think that you’ll find that there are actually more Catholics in Germany than there are Lutherans.
 
I’m not going to debate the merits of the particular Bible Society – but even during the Reformation, there were many German principalities who remained Catholic; there continued to be a strong Catholic presence in Germany; and there remains a strong Catholic presence in Germany.

I think that you’ll find that there are actually more Catholics in Germany than there are Lutherans.
The Catholic Church in Germany has about 25.7 million members. This means that 31.2 % of the 82.3 million Germans are Catholic. The Protestant Church has about the same membership, while the Orthodox Churches have 1.2 million members. About 4 % of the population are Muslims (nearly 3.3 million), the members of the Jewish Communities number a good 108,000. After the German unification, the non-denominational share of the population has increased considerably to almost one third.
The Church’s seven provinces are subdivided into 27 bishoprics with the archdioceses of Bamberg, Berlin, Cologne, Freiburg, Hamburg Munich-Freising and Paderborn. The archbishop, as the head of a province, bears the title of “metropolitan”, and has certain supervisory duties vis-à-vis his suffragan bishoprics. Numerically, the Archbishopric of Cologne is the largest diocese with almost 2.2 million Catholics, the smallest being the bishopric of Görlitz with a good 31,000 Catholics. Diaspora areas, in which the Catholics represent a minority of the population, are in the east and north of the Federal Republic. The dioceses in which the Catholics constitute the greatest percentage of the population are Passau (88.9 %), Regensburg (73.5 %), Augsburg (65.5%), Würzburg and Trier. The smallest Catholic percentages of the population are to be found on average in the bishoprics in the new Bundesländer, such as Dresden-Meißen (3.4 %), Magdeburg (3.8 %) and Görlitz (4.1 %). The Archdiocese of Hamburg, which embraces the Bundesländer of Hamburg, Schleswig-Holstein and the Mecklenburg part of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, with 6.8 % Catholics, is characterized by extreme diaspora.
(statistical data: 2006)
Ron; I like your link. Been looking for this for a long time Thanks.
sacredbible.org/vulgate2009/index.htm
 
Hi John,

After this amazing display of pet opinions, let’s get back to your problem. Firstt of all, understand that the Vulgate has been approved as free of doctrinal error. This does not mean free of translation errors or free of translations resting on a wrong reading. Second, undersand what the Nova Vulgata is. It is the Vulgata brought up to date according to the latest findings of scholars. It aims to remain as close as possible to the original Vulgate, even to the point of using the same grammatical rules, not the rules of classical latin.

So if you buy the Nova Vulgata, you will have the best that the Church has to offer as Her offcial bible.

Ifyou decide to buy the Clementine Vulgate, be very careful. Some editions have neither punctuation nor capitals. That can be very difficult to read, especially if you’re not a Latin scholar.

Verbum
 
First of all, understand that the Vulgate has been approved as free of doctrinal error. This does not mean free of translation errors or free of translations resting on a wrong reading.
Not correct.

The Council of Trent: “But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

The Council of Trent: “Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,–considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,–ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.”

There was no statement that Vulgate editions are necessarily free from doctrinal error (which might enter into a particular edition by a translation or editing error, or a copyist error). But if we exclude errors from translation, editing, or copying/printing, then we are merely saying that Sacred Scripture itself is without error.
Second, undersand what the Nova Vulgata is. It is the Vulgata brought up to date according to the latest findings of scholars. It aims to remain as close as possible to the original Vulgate, even to the point of using the same grammatical rules, not the rules of classical latin.
Not correct. There are no ‘latest findings’ which were used to update the Vulgate; if so, give an example. Also, the editors deliberately departed from the Latin Scriptural tradition and from all past editions of the Vulgate, preferring instead to rely on Hebrew and Greek texts, and often rendering those texts loosely, not as close as possible to the ‘original Vulgate’. Also, we do not have a copy of Jerome’s version of the Vulgate, and the Vulgate existed prior to Jerome (the vetus latina), of which we also have no copies. Also, the Nova Vulgata, and the norm of using the Nova Vulgata in Bible translations, has been criticized by modern Scripture scholars.
So if you buy the Nova Vulgata, you will have the best that the Church has to offer as Her offcial bible.
What is the basis for this claim?
If you decide to buy the Clementine Vulgate, be very careful. Some editions have neither punctuation nor capitals. That can be very difficult to read, especially if you’re not a Latin scholar.
The numerous editions of the Clementine Vulgate of which I am aware all have punctuation and capitalization, e.g. the Leander van Ess edition, the Hetzenauer edition, the Vercellone edition, the Tweedale edition, the Colunga and Turrado edition.

Only the Stuttgart edition (the Beuron/Stuttgart Bible Societies text edited by Bonifatius Fischer in 1975), which is not properly a Vulgate edition at all, but is a Protestant critical edition, lacks punctuation and capitalization.
 
Hi John,

After this amazing display of pet opinions, let’s get back to your problem. Firstt of all, understand that the Vulgate has been approved as free of doctrinal error. This does not mean free of translation errors or free of translations resting on a wrong reading. Second, undersand what the Nova Vulgata is. It is the Vulgata brought up to date according to the latest findings of scholars. It aims to remain as close as possible to the original Vulgate, even to the point of using the same grammatical rules, not the rules of classical latin.

So if you buy the Nova Vulgata, you will have the best that the Church has to offer as Her offcial bible.

Ifyou decide to buy the Clementine Vulgate, be very careful. Some editions have neither punctuation nor capitals. That can be very difficult to read, especially if you’re not a Latin scholar.

Verbum
John,

I would tend to agree with Verbum here. The out-of-context quoting of conciliar documents by some posters seems to place an unhealthy reliance on St. Jerome’s skills as a translator, without taking into consideration his own personal biases. St. Jerome was a formidable Scripture scholar – one who, unlike many in his time, understood not only Latin and Greek, but Hebrew as well. But St. Jerome was neither Pope nor Council, and his work, while of seminal importance, is not the final “be all and end all” that some would have you believe. The arguments of those who would suggest otherwise remind me of some of my own disputations with KJV Onlyists – who insisted that the King James Bible actually CORRECTED the original Hebrew and Greek. Incidentally, St. Jerome DISAGREED with Pope St. Damasus I concerning the inclusion of the Deutercanonical books of Scripture, taking a position which would be (sadly) abused by some Protestant Reformers, rejecting (or at least, strongly questioning) those books accepted as Canon but originally written in Greek.

Go with the Church – and you can’t go wrong!

Blessings to you!
 
Silence is changed to tranquility, apparently due to the influence of modern secular society.
By what authority do you make this claim? Or is this opinion? And if it is opinion, what qualifies this opinion, especially against the Vatican?

I’ll freely admit, I’m becoming VERY curious about some of your posts, and the sources of your “authority”.
 
The out-of-context quoting of conciliar documents by some posters seems to place an unhealthy reliance on St. Jerome’s skills as a translator, without taking into consideration his own personal biases. St. Jerome was a formidable Scripture scholar – one who, unlike many in his time, understood not only Latin and Greek, but Hebrew as well. But St. Jerome was neither Pope nor Council, and his work, while of seminal importance, is not the final “be all and end all” that some would have you believe. The arguments of those who would suggest otherwise remind me of some of my own disputations with KJV Onlyists – who insisted that the King James Bible actually CORRECTED the original Hebrew and Greek. Incidentally, St. Jerome DISAGREED with Pope St. Damasus I concerning the inclusion of the Deutercanonical books of Scripture, taking a position which would be (sadly) abused by some Protestant Reformers, rejecting (or at least, strongly questioning) those books accepted as Canon but originally written in Greek.

Go with the Church – and you can’t go wrong!
The quotes above from the Council of Trent are not out of context.

The Vulgate is not solely the work of Jerome. The first Latin translations were done by numerous unknown Christians in the early Church; many persons participated in this work. The roots of the Latin Vulgate are like the roots of a plant, many small contributions which together are essential for the life of the plant. Jerome’s contribution was substantial, but we don’t have a copy of his original work; many persons contributed after him.

But if you wish to place so much emphasis on the Pope, and not on the text itself, then why not prefer the Pope Sixtus V edition of the Vulgate; he worked on the translation himself, and he approved it with his full Apostolic authority and he forbid anyone to change it. But the sensus fidelium did not accept that edition, just as the sensus fidelium has not accepted the Nova Vulgata.

It is foolish to place the temporal authority of the Church above the authority of Tradition and Scripture. Neither the Magisterium, nor the temporal authority, of the Church is above Tradition and Scripture. The mere fact that an edition of the Bible is approved does not prove that it is the best edition. The temporal authority of the Church is fallible.
 
By what authority do you make this claim? Or is this opinion? And if it is opinion, what qualifies this opinion, especially against the Vatican?

I’ll freely admit, I’m becoming VERY curious about some of your posts, and the sources of your “authority”.
I speak with knowledge based on many years of study and work with the Bible; I do not speak with authority. The Nova Vulgata is not the work of ‘the Vatican’ but the work of a group of Beneditine scholars at a particular monastery. A criticism of the Neo-vulgate is not ‘against the Vatican’.

The text of the verse in question in the Pope Sixtus V and Pope Clement VIII editions is:

{2:11} Mulier in **silentio **discat cum omni subiectione.
{2:12} Docere autem mulieri non permitto, neque dominari in virum: sed esse in silentio.

But in the Nova Vulgata:

11 Mulier in **tranquillitate **discat cum omni subiectione;
12 docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum, sed esse in tranquillitate.

In numerous places the NV abandons the Latin Scriptural Tradition altogether, in favor of a loose translation of the Hebrew or Greek. Although loose translations have their usefulness, they are not fit to be a source text, or a definitive arbitrator between source texts.
 
HI Ron,

I don’t have a data base to throw at you. What I have stated is true, and is going to be helpful to the person asking the questions. I am just disappointed that you are at odds with the Vatican. Enjoy yourself.

Verbum
 
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