Infallability

[joe370]

Gurney, it does not sound like you are still living in the Catholic or Anglican nexus anymore. LOL…Just kidding…Your breakdown (The Catholic Church began with Matthew 16:18…) - was the very reason why I became catholic. I still think all protestant churches are awesome, but I feel closest to Jesus in the church founded by God, as opposed to a church founded by man.

Of course Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and ensures its continuance and triumph but it is through the use of men, the hierarchy of the Church that this is accomplished, from a Catholic perspective. The idea of “denomination” never existed until the 16th Century, schaick? I would disagree with you that the Catholic Church is a “branch.” The Catholic Church began with Matthew 16:18 when Peter is the Rock and at Pentecost the apostles are energized with the H.S. and from that point there is unity of mission, theology, and purpose. We see a united Catholic Church East and West at Nicaea, Chalcedon, Ephesus, and so many other councils. We see the Catholic Church decide what is biblical canon, assemble the Bible coherently, fight off one heresy after the other, and keep theological purity for future generations.

Your thesis seems to be that after the first 20 years or so, the Church collapsed into chaos, started creating a phony priesthood and hierarchy that was corrupt and foolish, and they developed screwed-up theology and liturgy and continued that for another 1500 years until Luther cleaned up the mess. That defies logic IMO.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Joe,

I’m actually close to reverting to the CC. Honestly it’s the lack of charity, triumphalism, and false characterizations by Catholics sometimes in here as well as the overscrupulous and pharisaic attitudes I hear from so many Catholics that actualyl makes me not want to return. I also have some divergent opinions with the CC on a couple of issues–most especially indulgences, the treasury of merit, and universal papal supremacy of jurisdiction. I think some Catholic views of history seem anachronistic and square pegs fitting into round ones. But overall I’m getting closer.

Let’s put it this way—I just put my daughter to bed while my wife put my two sons to bed. Veronica (my daughter) and I prayed the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Glory Be, the Fatima Prayer, the Hail Holy Queen, and a personal prayer.

Blessings to ya Joe!

Gurney, it does not sound like you are still living in the Catholic or Anglican nexus anymore. LOL…Just kidding…Your breakdown (The Catholic Church began with Matthew 16:18…) - was the very reason why I became catholic. I still think all protestant churches are awesome, but I feel closest to Jesus in the church founded by God, as opposed to a church founded by man.

 

[Janet1983]

So then how do you reconcile what Jesus says that the “gates of hell will not prevail against my Church” and that he’d send us the Holy Spirit to “lead us unto all truth” as well as Jesus commissioning the apostles to bind and loose (notice he didn’t give this power to laity, just apostolic commission here), he prayed for Peter as shepherd, and Jesus doesn’t build his Church on a figurative invisible entity. We read already in the NT that the Church is a tangiable community that can excommunicate, guide, shepherd, and Paul warns constantly against factions and even more against schism. Jesus also asks that we “may all be one.”

There is and never was an invisible figurative Church but a concrete and tangiable one. Your thesis seems to be that for 1,500 years the Church was not legit but rather flawed, tainted, and manipulated until Luther and Calvin came and cleaned up the mess and created a plethora of churches that are now so vast and contradicting and chaotic in number that they have become an invisible communion of believers? This is hardly what Our Lord was talking about or hoping for from my reading of history and Scripture?

Let me put it like this: When I drove from Texas to Missouri 1 year ago I used a map. The map was correct, detailed enough and I had a good description of what I had to do.
It was a wonderful guide and very helpul. Nevertheless I drove into the wrong direction for about 30 minutes until I realized that I had taken the wrong turn in Oklahoma City. I had gone off one exit too early.

In other words: We might have the best guide, but sometimes we act upon our own notions and don’t wait upon Him. As long as there is sin in every man’s heart there won’t be any perfection.
I believe that the Church had flaws for over 1900 years. All in all however His Church was always protected and guided by Him.
I believe you to be a Christian. Why? Not because you are Catholic but because I sense that you are earnestly seeking God and that He is your Lord, just as He is my Lord.

All those who cling to Him are united with Him and thereby with one another. We are the Christian Church.

Do you view doctrine or the canon as being important issues within the Christian Church founded by Christ? If so how do you reconcile the differences? Why would you personally choose one over the other to belong to or does even matter?

Do I view them as important? Yes, I do. I believe that there are doctrines that are inherenty important: Christ’s Deity, the virgin birth, Christ’s death and resurrection, atonement for sin, repentance and forgiveness…
I do not blieve however that we should become hostile over disagreements. I believe that you are a Christian and I believe myself to be a Christian and we are both part of His Church. It looks like you’re in RCIA. I don’t believe that this would make you more of a Christian or less of a Chritian than me.
As long as we serve the same Lord we are united through Him.

 

[joe370]

gurneyhalleck1;7247232]Hi Joe,

I’m actually close to reverting to the CC. Honestly it’s the lack of charity, triumphalism, and false characterizations by Catholics sometimes in here as well as the overscrupulous and pharisaic attitudes I hear from so many Catholics that actualyl makes me not want to return.

I understand. What use to bother me when I was where you are right now, were the bad folks that were members of CC through every century, going all the way back to Judas but then I am reminded of what Jesus said about His church:

• Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves… Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It also occurred to me that the Holy Spirit was not sent to the CC to keep bad people out, but rather to protect and safeguard doctrinal truth, so that every generation could have access to those truths just as the 1st century Christians had access to those doctrinal truths. There will always be bad people, as well as really good people in the CC. After all, the devil never rests, but, like you said, the gates of hell will never prevail:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I also have some divergent opinions with the CC on a couple of issues–most especially indulgences, the treasury of merit,

Those were, for a period of time, the same obstacles that kept me on the fence.

…and universal papal supremacy of jurisdiction.

After all my research of the early church, that one didn’t really bother me. Just as you were living in the Catholic or Anglican nexus, I too was living in a nexus but it was the EOC or CC nexus. Not to mention the fact that Matthew 16 seems to be very clearly and grammatically stating that the church founded by Jesus is built on Kepha and the EOC does not believe that to be the case, based on my research. They believe that it is Kepha’s confession.

I think some Catholic views of history seem anachronistic and square pegs fitting into round ones. But overall I’m getting closer.

Blessings to ya Joe!

I certainly understand what you are going through; it took me 3 years to hop off the proverbial fence.

Blessings to you to Gurney and I hope and pray that your journey home to the CC is a smooth one. I hope you don’t let the lack of charity, triumphalism, and false characterizations by SOME Catholics block your way, like I did for so long.

By the way, what did you find out vis-a-vis that thread you started about fallible teachings of any one Pope? PM me if you get the chance…

 

[joe370]

Hey Janet…

Let me put it like this: When I drove from Texas to Missouri 1 year ago I used a map. The map was correct, detailed enough and I had a good description of what I had to do.
It was a wonderful guide and very helpul. Nevertheless I drove into the wrong direction for about 30 minutes until I realized that I had taken the wrong turn in Oklahoma City. I had gone off one exit too early.

In other words: We might have the best guide, but sometimes we act upon our own notions and don’t wait upon Him. As long as there is sin in every man’s heart there won’t be any perfection.

Nobody is perfect except God, and, according to the bible, God is guiding Jesus’ established church into all truth, until the end of time. The sin of man will never trump the will of God and God willed it that all revealed doctrinal truth (John 16:13 - John 14) - will continue to be safeguarded from within and without His established church. If I didn’t believe that God is in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth, in His church, I would not be a Christian today.

I believe that the Church had flaws for over 1900 years. All in all however His Church was always protected and guided by Him.

Every single person that ever belonged to Jesus’ church were and are flawed. So you do believe that His Church, regarding doctrinal truth, was always protected and guided by Him? Are you talking about the CC or all churches, regardless of denomination?

I believe you to be a Christian. Why? Not because you are Catholic but because I sense that you are earnestly seeking God and that He is your Lord, just as He is my Lord.

Is that all that is needed? What if I decide that no churches are necessary and that I can simply seek God from my home via my interpretation of my bible?

All those who cling to Him are united with Him and thereby with one another. We are the Christian Church.

The CCC (CCC817 - 821) - agrees with you but there was and is only one historical church founded by God circa AD 33, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem. Which church (out of so many churches isolated from one another) - in the world today, was born on that fateful day - Pentecost?

Do I view them as important? Yes, I do. I believe that there are doctrines that are inherenty important: Christ’s Deity, the virgin birth, Christ’s death and resurrection, atonement for sin, repentance and forgiveness…

But that’s just it; you and I were not entrusted with the authority to decide which doctrines are necessary or important and which doctrine were not! If that would have been the modus operandi early on, who knows what books would be included in the bible, among many other things. Who was entrusted with said authority???

I do not blieve however that we should become hostile over disagreements. I believe that you are a Christian and I believe myself to be a Christian and we are both part of His Church. It looks like you’re in RCIA. I don’t believe that this would make you more of a Christian or less of a Chritian than me.
As long as we serve the same Lord we are united through Him.

Agreed. What I don’t agree with is the fact that anyone can arbitrarily decide which doctrines are inherently important and which doctrines are not. That is not biblical at all. That is what divided the one Protestant church in the first place, and private interpretation really bothered Martin Luther, the very person that spearheaded the first PC.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the encouragement. I’ll be sure to PM when I get some time. I’m about ready to hit the tick!

Gurney

I understand. What use to bother me when I was where you are right now, were the bad folks that were members of CC through every century, going all the way back to Judas but then I am reminded of what Jesus said about His church:

• Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves… Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It also occurred to me that the Holy Spirit was not sent to the CC to keep bad people out, but rather to protect and safeguard doctrinal truth, so that every generation could have access to those truths just as the 1st century Christians had access to those doctrinal truths. There will always be bad people, as well as really good people in the CC. After all, the devil never rests, but, like you said, the gates of hell will never prevail:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Those were, for a period of time, the same obstacles that kept me on the fence.

After all my research of the early church, that one didn’t really bother me. Just as you were living in the Catholic or Anglican nexus, I too was living in a nexus but it was the EOC or CC nexus. Not to mention the fact that Matthew 16 seems to be very clearly and grammatically stating that the church founded by Jesus is built on Kepha and the EOC does not believe that to be the case, based on my research. They believe that it is Kepha’s confession.

I certainly understand what you are going through; it took me 3 years to hop off the proverbial fence.

Blessings to you to Gurney and I hope and pray that your journey home to the CC is a smooth one. I hope you don’t let the lack of charity, triumphalism, and false characterizations by SOME Catholics block your way, like I did for so long.

By the way, what did you find out vis-a-vis that thread you started about fallible teachings of any one Pope? PM me if you get the chance…

 

[schaick]

Of course Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and ensures its continuance and triumph but it is through the use of men, the hierarchy of the Church that this is accomplished, from a Catholic perspective. The idea of “denomination” never existed until the 16th Century, schaick? I would disagree with you that the Catholic Church is a “branch.” The Catholic Church began with Matthew 16:18 when Peter is the Rock and at Pentecost the apostles are energized with the H.S. and from that point there is unity of mission, theology, and purpose. We see a united Catholic Church East and West at Nicaea, Chalcedon, Ephesus, and so many other councils. We see the Catholic Church decide what is biblical canon, assemble the Bible coherently, fight off one heresy after the other, and keep theological purity for future generations.

Your thesis seems to be that after the first 20 years or so, the Church collapsed into chaos, started creating a phony priesthood and hierarchy that was corrupt and foolish, and they developed screwed-up theology and liturgy and continued that for another 1500 years until Luther cleaned up the mess. That defies logic IMO.

The Catholic Church has developed away from the Jesus’ Church that was started at Pentecost and so is a denomination whether the term existed or not. Do you really think a Church Jesus built would be the political machine the Catholic Church is today?

LOL!! not chaos those are your words, but if Catholics believe there to be chaos now then I suppose it was chaos- look at all the different groups that developed early on-Apollinarianism, Arianism, Docetism, Collyridians, Ebionitism, Eutychianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Monarchianism, etc.

Would you say that the Catholic Church as a whole has always shown the fruits of the Spirit? I say no, but that does not mean the indivduals of the Catholic branch are not members of Jesus’ Church just like any of us showing the fruits in any branch of Jesus’ Church.

Do Catholics believe that if Popes ceased to exist Jesus’ Church would fail?

Everyone today has access to theological purity - from Scripture and the early Church Fathers’ writings, at most libraries and even on-line you don’t need to go to just the Catholic Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When Arianism plagued the Church, the Pentecostals, Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Nazarenes weren’t there fighting it. The Catholic Church was. When the Bible was being put into canon and discernment as to what belongs in Scripture was being decided, the Catholic Church was there. With Nestorianism, Docetism, Donatism, Monothelitism, and all the other “isms” of heresy, it was the Catholic Church squashing these cancers. The Catholic Church wrote the Creeds, the Catholic Church established our Christology, the Catholic Church preserved the Sacraments, the Catholic Church brought Christianity from point A to point B. And yet you claim that the Church developed “away” from the Church Christ built? I’m perplexed by your question about the political “machine” and whether Jesus would want that for humanity or not. Do you think there are no politics in the Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Assembly of God, Nazarene, Presbyterian and other churches? Look at how many splits, arguments, and knock-down drag-outs you’ve seen in these groups! Look at the Anglican Church today and what a disaster it is from political rangling! The Catholic Church is a worldwide Church and has numbers of adherents that blow the rest away. It would be next to impossible to NOT have a solid political infrastructure to govern a Church internationally at such a staggering financial, manpower, and theological scale, would it not? And what is wrong with having a sophisticated structure of governance? This isn’t Acts of the Apostles where you’re dealing with thousands of Christians. This is in the billions, right?

I actually do think the Catholic Church has always shown the fruits of the Spirit. Whether it was the Creeds, squashing heresies, giving us men like St. Francis of Assisi and his piety or St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and their genius or the Padre Pios, John Paul II’s and Pope Gregory the Greats or whether it was the Church protecting civilization through the Dark Ages into modernity, I think the Church has had its dark moments with individuals letting the Church down but overall it has been a triumph to be fair.

The Catholic Church has developed away from the Jesus’ Church that was started at Pentecost and so is a denomination whether the term existed or not. Do you really think a Church Jesus built would be the political machine the Catholic Church is today?

LOL!! not chaos those are your words, but if Catholics believe there to be chaos now then I suppose it was chaos- look at all the different groups that developed early on-Apollinarianism, Arianism, Docetism, Collyridians, Ebionitism, Eutychianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Monarchianism, etc.

Would you say that the Catholic Church as a whole has always shown the fruits of the Spirit? I say no, but that does not mean the indivduals of the Catholic branch are not members of Jesus’ Church just like any of us showing the fruits in any branch of Jesus’ Church.

Do Catholics believe that if Popes ceased to exist Jesus’ Church would fail?

Everyone today has access to theological purity - from Scripture and the early Church Fathers’ writings, at most libraries and even on-line you don’t need to go to just the Catholic Church.

 

[joe370]

Phew Gurney…Kind of hard to argue against that logic.

When Arianism plagued the Church, the Pentecostals, Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Nazarenes weren’t there fighting it. The Catholic Church was. When the Bible was being put into canon and discernment as to what belongs in Scripture was being decided, the Catholic Church was there. With Nestorianism, Docetism, Donatism, Monothelitism, and all the other “isms” of heresy, it was the Catholic Church squashing these cancers. The Catholic Church wrote the Creeds, the Catholic Church established our Christology, the Catholic Church preserved the Sacraments, the Catholic Church brought Christianity from point A to point B. And yet you claim that the Church developed “away” from the Church Christ built? I’m perplexed by your question about the political “machine” and whether Jesus would want that for humanity or not. Do you think there are no politics in the Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Assembly of God, Nazarene, Presbyterian and other churches? Look at how many splits, arguments, and knock-down drag-outs you’ve seen in these groups! Look at the Anglican Church today and what a disaster it is from political rangling! The Catholic Church is a worldwide Church and has numbers of adherents that blow the rest away. It would be next to impossible to NOT have a solid political infrastructure to govern a Church internationally at such a staggering financial, manpower, and theological scale, would it not? And what is wrong with having a sophisticated structure of governance? This isn’t Acts of the Apostles where you’re dealing with thousands of Christians. This is in the billions, right?

I actually do think the Catholic Church has always shown the fruits of the Spirit. Whether it was the Creeds, squashing heresies, giving us men like St. Francis of Assisi and his piety or St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and their genius or the Padre Pios, John Paul II’s and Pope Gregory the Greats or whether it was the Church protecting civilization through the Dark Ages into modernity, I think the Church has had its dark moments with individuals letting the Church down but overall it has been a triumph to be fair.

 

[BlueShadow123]

He himself is not infallible, only infallible when making certain decisions for the church.

But the pope has sinned just like every other human on earth. He is human, not god.

 

[BTTG]

Hey Joe

Don’t forget me ,please

In Rev. 12 - how did " mother Mary" "(Rev 12:6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Thank you

written with love

 

[joe370]

In Rev. 12 - how did " mother Mary" "(Rev 12:6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

thank you

I’m sorry but I don’t understand the question.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks, Joe

Phew Gurney…Kind of hard to argue against that logic.

 

[schaick]

When Arianism plagued the Church, the Pentecostals, Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Nazarenes weren’t there fighting it. The Catholic Church was. When the Bible was being put into canon and discernment as to what belongs in Scripture was being decided, the Catholic Church was there. With Nestorianism, Docetism, Donatism, Monothelitism, and all the other “isms” of heresy, it was the Catholic Church squashing these cancers. The Catholic Church wrote the Creeds, the Catholic Church established our Christology, the Catholic Church preserved the Sacraments, the Catholic Church brought Christianity from point A to point B. And yet you claim that the Church developed “away” from the Church Christ built?

Yes and actually at times it is the Catholic branch that is cancerous going beyond the authoritative boundaries of Jesus’ Church. I see an issue in developing doctrine from some secret tradition that there is no absolutely no proof of.

The creeds are Scripture based, 2 natures of Christ, sacraments, etc., that message was there and is in Scripture.

If not for the message there would be no Christians.-

I’m perplexed by your question about the political “machine” and whether Jesus would want that for humanity or not. Do you think there are no politics in the Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Assembly of God, Nazarene, Presbyterian and other churches? Look at how many splits, arguments, and knock-down drag-outs you’ve seen in these groups! Look at the Anglican Church today and what a disaster it is from political rangling! The Catholic Church is a worldwide Church and has numbers of adherents that blow the rest away. It would be next to impossible to NOT have a solid political infrastructure to govern a Church internationally at such a staggering financial, manpower, and theological scale, would it not? And what is wrong with having a sophisticated structure of governance? This isn’t Acts of the Apostles where you’re dealing with thousands of Christians. This is in the billions, right?

I was actually thinking of political as when the Catholic Church tried to control or become one with the State around 300 AD, it became a branch. Moving again closer to a branch of Jesus’ Church as it started to amass hugh wealth. When corruption crept into the actual hierarchy and it was not discouraged to leave the way the heretics were. So the Catholic Church is simply another denomination of Jesus’ Church.

Governence, but not to the extent of the Catholic Church. What is needed for one congregation is not necessarily needed for another- we see that early in Jesus’ Church in Paul’s letters to the various congregations.

This is the message I get from the Catholic Church, if none of the following bothers you why aren’t you Catholic? I say go for it.
If you really truly trusted the Holy Spirit would you need a hierarchy on the scale you see in the Catholic Church, 2-3 could gather in his name and Christ would be there, unless of course you believe the Holy Spirit only goes to the Catholic Church. But then of course none of us mere Christians would actually be baptized, but the Catholic Church says we are so HE must come to mere Christian congregations for baptisms. But I have been told on this forum that our Real Presence Eucharist is not Real Presence because …We only receive part of the Holy Spirit? The fullness of the Spirit is not there according to the Catholic Church, because it says so? Do they have control over the Holy Spirit? No, they just know the fullness is not there. And there is a lack of fullness of faith because mere Christians don’t follow traditions that there is no proof they were followed in the early Church but now because the Catholic Church says so has become a requirement for our salvation? A tradition that was not mentioned in the original Gospel message is now required? Because a doctrine of infalliblity has developed so other developed doctrines are “truth”. Was the Pope that developed infallibilty, infallible at the time? He said he was, so he is infallible because he said so whether he shows the fruits of the Spirits or not. Yet why do mere Christians make such a big deal out of infallibility-a pope has only spoken ex cathedra 2 times- about Mary, but I ask wouldn’t the list have to include infallibility? But no wait another says there were multiple infallible statements-I just need to do my homework. The Creeds, but why do you need an infallible statement about a fact in Scripture from GOD’s infallible WORD? So does an infallible statement need to be something no one can prove? Oh but there is proof in the deposit of faith. Can you show me-no answer.

I actually do think the Catholic Church has always shown the fruits of the Spirit. Whether it was the Creeds, squashing heresies, giving us men like St. Francis of Assisi and his piety or St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and their genius or the Padre Pios, John Paul II’s and Pope Gregory the Greats or whether it was the Church protecting civilization through the Dark Ages into modernity, I think the Church has had its dark moments with individuals letting the Church down but overall it has been a triumph to be fair.

Not all see the Catholic Church as protecting civilization during the Dark Ages, this is when it was cancerous, not sure I would include that as a feather. The Catholic Church showed less tolerance then the Jewish Christians requesting the Gentiles be circumsized in Paul’s time.

There are amazing Christians in every branch of Jesus’ Church, just as there are evil people.

Did Leo X display the fruits of the Spirit when he excommunicated Luther? When he accused Luther believing burning heretics was against the will of the Spirit?

we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t see your point with the Church becoming a “branch” or denomination simply because it became legalized and the religion of the state post Constantine/Theodosius? The Church had splinters come along like the Coptics and of course there were heretical groups like the gnostics or montanists but to say that the mainstream Church of the day was a branch makes no sense to me. The Church was truly united at that point, East and West.

And I also have to disagree about your assessment with the councils. You say these things they decided like the Trinity and Christology are in the Bible so the Church doesn’t deserve the credit. I disagree. You make the assumption that the Bible will automatically yield good fruit and solid interpretation from people. Not always so. Look at the Episcopalians and ELCA Lutherans and how they have interpreted the Bible—gay marriages, gay ordinations, ordaining women, on and on. Then look at folks like the JW’s! They rejected the Trinity altogether! and look at the gnostics and their wild views of the resurrection and Christology! Or Arius and the rest. The Church, unidivided at that time, preserved the orthodox teachings of Christianity in a tumultuous time. I think you underestimate how widespread and downright dangerous Arianism had become!

I also think you don’t give enough credit to the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. You talk about their “cancers” but you fail to mention how they were able to Christianize the barbarians and establish relationships with the nobility and monarchs of a dangerous and unstable Europe that had horrible infrastructure, chaotic governance, pagan religion, and mass violence. The Catholic Church was able to broker relationships between monarchs, keep the peace at times (especially during Lent), and we also forget that the Catholic Church established the first hospitals, universities, and decent law codes in Europe. The Catholic Church also protected all the non-Christian writings of antiquity throughout the barbarian invasions and all the insanity. They kept the works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plutarch, Cicero, and the rest so that we today can appreciate these amazing writings. The Church Christianized and witnessed to millions of people. Sometimes the Church did lousy things and was short-sighted. Take Charles Martel, for example. He had seen the writing on the wall that the Muslim invaders were coming to France to conquer Europe in the name of Islam. He confiscated Church property to pay for soldiers and to arm them. He was on the brink of excommunication by the Church when the Battle of Tours was close at hand and they realized that they had to let him fight, they backed off. So in that case, had the Church gotten their way with Martel, we’d all be Muslims today probably. So the Church wasn’t perfect in their politics. That’s a no-brainer. The Borgia popes and the licentiousness, the corruption in the curia, the avignon papacy debacle, the anti-popes vs. popes silliness, the way Jan Hus was betrayed at the Council of Constance, I could name many examples of corruption in the Church and foolhardy moves. But is the essential theology and teaching of the Church evil and is Catholicism a denomination? That’s a stretch…

Yes and actually at times it is the Catholic branch that is cancerous going beyond the authoritative boundaries of Jesus’ Church. I see an issue in developing doctrine from some secret tradition that there is no absolutely no proof of.

The creeds are Scripture based, 2 natures of Christ, sacraments, etc., that message was there and is in Scripture.

If not for the message there would be no Christians.-

I was actually thinking of political as when the Catholic Church tried to control or become one with the State around 300 AD, it became a branch. Moving again closer to a branch of Jesus’ Church as it started to amass hugh wealth. When corruption crept into the actual hierarchy and it was not discouraged to leave the way the heretics were. So the Catholic Church is simply another denomination of Jesus’ Church.

Governence, but not to the extent of the Catholic Church. What is needed for one congregation is not necessarily needed for another- we see that early in Jesus’ Church in Paul’s letters to the various congregations.

This is the message I get from the Catholic Church, if none of the following bothers you why aren’t you Catholic? I say go for it.
If you really truly trusted the Holy Spirit would you need a hierarchy on the scale you see in the Catholic Church, 2-3 could gather in his name and Christ would be there, unless of course you believe the Holy Spirit only goes to the Catholic Church. But then of course none of us mere Christians would actually be baptized, but the Catholic Church says we are so HE must come to mere Christian congregations for baptisms. But I have been told on this forum that our Real Presence Eucharist is not Real Presence because …We only receive part of the Holy Spirit? The fullness of the Spirit is not there according to the Catholic Church, because it says so? Do they have control over the Holy Spirit? No, they just know the fullness is not there.

Not all see the Catholic Church as protecting civilization during the Dark Ages, this is when it was cancerous, not sure I would include that as a feather. The Catholic Church showed less tolerance then the Jewish Christians requesting the Gentiles be circumsized in Paul’s time.

There are amazing Christians in every branch of Jesus’ Church, just as there are evil people.

Did Leo X display the fruits of the Spirit when he excommunicated Luther? When he accused Luther believing burning heretics was against the will of the Spirit?

we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language

 

[joe370]

Schaick, you said:

Yes and actually at times it is the Catholic branch that is cancerous going beyond the authoritative boundaries of Jesus’ Church.

I am gonna give it one more try: Let’s say you are absolutely right about the CC being a branch of Jesus’ church as opposed to being the actual church founded by Jesus circa AD 33, on Pentecost. Let’s completely rule the CC out, for the moment, as just another offshoot (branch) - of the one church founded by God.

Help me find Jesus’ church, in the world today, as opposed to all of the protestant branches (offshoots of the one church founded by Jesus) - and the catholic branch (also an offshoot of the one church founded by Jesus)?

 

[Irish_Polock]

the old covenant included the 10 commandments. have the 10 commandments been replaced?

First, I apologize for being WAY off topic.

“…thus the Sinai Covenant has been superseded,” (Cardinal Ratzinger, Many Religions - One Covenant pg. 70)

The Old Covenant, (the Mosaic Covenant) has been abrogated as a legal entity, and is no longer binding to anyone. This has been the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church. Below are Scripture references that teach this truth.

Hebrews 7:18, Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9, 2 Corinthians 3:14, Colossians 2:14

While many ECF’s spoke on the subject, I will just mention this one whom most people are familiar with.

St. Augustine: “Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremiah also prophesied thus in God’s name: ‘Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,and with the house of Judah…’ Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the spirit” (Letters, 74, 4);

I hope this helps.

Edit: spelling

 

[schaick]

Schaick, you said:

I am gonna give it one more try: Let’s say you are absolutely right about the CC being a branch of Jesus’ church as opposed to being the actual church founded by Jesus circa AD 33, on Pentecost. Let’s completely rule the CC out, for the moment, as just another offshoot (branch) - of the one church founded by God.

Help me find Jesus’ church, in the world today, as opposed to all of the protestant branches (offshoots of the one church founded by Jesus) - and the catholic branch (also an offshoot of the one church founded by Jesus)?

Joe-
You are thinking too concretely. Jesus Church does not exist in it’s entirety in any one denomination/branch or congregation.

Jesus Church is you and gurneyhalleck1 and me and yes even elvisman!!

Joe and gurneyhalleck1-

Don’t think of me saying the Catholic Church is a branch of the church Jesus built as a negative it is simply a fact. It is not necessarily the case that it was not needed

The early Church owned no land, no buildings,no art, no type of material things- Jesus’ Church was concerned with the spiritual, not the things of this world. The Church was focused on Jesus’ return.

The Church Jesus built existed in Jerusalem first with a Jewish flavor - culture, the first Christians were Jews following Jewish Laws, feasts and traditons.

There were no Popes, no central rule. Worship was done in synagogues until they were run out and went to homes, there was much fellowship, smaller congrgations locally organized.

It did not matter whether Mary was co-redeemer, immaculately conceived, assumed. The focus was on Jesus-the Eucharist.

Evangelism was a priority look how the Church grew, foot washing was done.

There were no doctrines, christians simply lived as a follwer of Christ. As time progressed everything Christian needed to be defined, explained- in what way is the Bread and Wine the Body and Blood of Christ even though it seems not important enough to be in GOD’s Word.

It is the establishing of doctrines that has splintered Jesus’ Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The fact that the Church started in the synagogue and then merged into the homes of believers and that organization day one of the Church was still in its infancy doesn’t remove the fact that it was the local congregations ALL deciding to have one presbyter acts as episkopos (bishop) over the rest in each community. Each Church started out with councils of presbyters. Over a very short amount of time, by the second century we see ALL the Churches have a monepiscopacy, one bishop. I would suggest you read Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp and take note of how seriously the local churches viewed the power and Christ-driven authority that the local bishops had. In the end of the first and into the beginning of the second centuries the entire Christian landscape was the same:

one bishop
Eucharist (real presence)
Sacrifice of the Mass
Liturgy
organized
priesthood

Jesus planted a seed and at Pentecost the seed was watered and fertilized and nurtured. And very quickly the seed grew into the plant that we call the Church. It’s not that the Church wasn’t the Church day one but it was like a child and the Church we see within a few decades was the adult full grown Church.

The fact is that the local elders all gave the authority to the bishop and the bishop carried the authority from Christ on high to lead the flocks. The Church’s power was present day one but rapidly developed out of its synagogue/home-based cocoon.

There were no denominations in the early Church. It was one. It was called by the Fathers the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. It wasn’t denominational. It was more conciliar, true, and the papacy was more of a primatial See that wielded great respect, people deferred to her, and the papacy was the summit of episcopal rule.

No, the Marian dogmas were not on the table yet. You expect all Christian doctrines, theology, eschatology, soteriology, and doctrinal matters to have been set within 100 years? It took centuries of heresies, misunderstandings, schismatic threats, and diabolical threats on the Church to help clarify, expound, explain, and develop systematically these doctrines and truths we know today. God doesn’t always work quickly, you know that. Look at how long it took for God just to lay out the 10 Commandments! All the way through the Patriarchal period for hundreds of years it took for God to use Moses finally just to give the Law. Then look how long it took for a monarchy in Israel. Then look how long it took for the Messiah! Then look how long it took to develop the theology and dogmas we enjoy today. It’s just God’s way.

Of course evangelism was the priority----the whole world was pagan or Jewish! And there wasn’t a need to define things like the Eucharist or Mary or other things really in the early church as these things were UNDERSTOOD by the apostolic age Church congregants. They knew the Real Presence; they didn’t need it codified. It was only after centuries of misunderstanding about the Eucharist that the Church felt the need to officially explain it.

Keep in mind, Schaik, that heresy usually forces dogmas and codified teachings. Just like in our system of law, laws aren’t created until trouble arises with an issue.

The Church was never a loosey-goosey group of believers with Bibles who decided their own truths and just were held together by an invisible glue of faith. The Church was always concrete, local and global, had visible leadership int he episcopacy, was sacramental, sacrificial (see the Didache for reference and the Fathers), liturgical, and held the four marks of the True Church.

Blessings!

Joe-
You are thinking too concretely. Jesus Church does not exist in it’s entirety in any one denomination/branch or congregation.

Jesus Church is you and gurneyhalleck1 and me and yes even elvisman!!

Joe and gurneyhalleck1-

Don’t think of me saying the Catholic Church is a branch of the church Jesus built as a negative it is simply a fact. It is not necessarily the case that it was not needed

The early Church owned no land, no buildings,no art, no type of material things- Jesus’ Church was concerned with the spiritual, not the things of this world. The Church was focused on Jesus’ return.

The Church Jesus built existed in Jerusalem first with a Jewish flavor - culture, the first Christians were Jews following Jewish Laws, feasts and traditons.

There were no Popes, no central rule. Worship was done in synagogues until they were run out and went to homes, there was much fellowship, smaller congrgations locally organized.

It did not matter whether Mary was co-redeemer, immaculately conceived, assumed. The focus was on Jesus-the Eucharist.

Evangelism was a priority look how the Church grew, foot washing was done.

There were no doctrines, christians simply lived as a follwer of Christ. As time progressed everything Christian needed to be defined, explained- in what way is the Bread and Wine the Body and Blood of Christ even though it seems not important enough to be in GOD’s Word.

 

[kenofken]

Schaick, you said:

I am gonna give it one more try: Let’s say you are absolutely right about the CC being a branch of Jesus’ church as opposed to being the actual church founded by Jesus circa AD 33, on Pentecost. Let’s completely rule the CC out, for the moment, as just another offshoot (branch) - of the one church founded by God.

Help me find Jesus’ church, in the world today, as opposed to all of the protestant branches (offshoots of the one church founded by Jesus) - and the catholic branch (also an offshoot of the one church founded by Jesus)?

I’m not even Christian, but I can give you directions. Get in your car. Drive to the worst street on the bad side of whatever town you live. Find the worst down and out wretch you can. Put them up in a hotel if they have no place to live. Buy them a decent meal. Pay their way for whatever medical/psychiatric attention they may need. Give them at job at your business if you happen to have one. Do whatever it takes to elevate this person to a standard of living decent enough that you would not be ashamed to see your own son or daughter, or yourself living that way. Then do the same thing for another person just like that. Sell all of the high-end lifestyle **** you may have to pay for it - the iPhone, the bazillion inch widescreen TV, your home, if need be.

THAT’s where Jesus’ church is in the world today, and where it’s always been. Everything else is just a branch/denomination.