Infallability

[Irish_Polock]

Merely striving for clarity.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you going to hold this single verse to proof-text your understanding of Salvation? Please explain how this single verse of Scripture has ratified your understanding.it would be advantageous for you to remember that faith is essential to the salvinc message, although it is only a part of it.
Could you please discus the Gospel (Justification, Salvation, Eschatology, ext. ext.) according to your ecclesiastical community? I have read some of the literature and I have found it somewhat odd. Certainly I am biased. I would much rather learn from the students what exactly your ecclesiastical community has taught - to get your understanding of it.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Here’s 1Jn.1 in it’s entirety

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This chapter is all about fellowship. John starts out by talking of the fellowship that he and the other apostles injoyed with Jesus and he says that we also can have that fellowship. Verse 7 says that we are cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus and v. 9 says that He forgives our sins, that He cleanses us from unrighteousness. There is absolutely no implication that we confess to anyone but Him.

Rom.14
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Also, note carefully that the letter is written to believers, believers whom can lose their salvation if they don’t maintain their faith and obedience in the Christian faith. For example, the Church of Sardis is told:

“3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (Revelation (RSV) 3).”

And you should probably read Hebrews 6:1-6 and 10:26-31 for good measure.

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews (RSV) 6)

26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews (RSV) 10)

 

[Irish_Polock]

Ok, Irish where is this sacred oral tradition of which you speak? And who is the magisterium?

The Sacred Tradition has, and will always be in the Catholic Church, and the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Holy Mother Church. Surly you knew this though…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You question presupposes one has a proper interpretation of scripture. The magisterium teaches the proper interpretation for neither scripture nor your interpretation of it is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is.

My question presupposes nothing of the kind. It’s a simple question ink. This magisterium have a concordance then? Where can I get one?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Sacred Tradition has, and will always be in the Catholic Church, and the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Holy Mother Church. Surly you knew this though…

Again let me ask you. Is there anything in this sacred tradition that is necessary for our salvation and is not contained in scripture? If there isn’t, if everything we need can be found in scripture, we really don’t need this tradition, do we? If there is something, what is it?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Also, note carefully that the letter is written to believers, believers whom can lose their salvation if they don’t maintain their faith and obedience in the Christian faith. For example, the Church of Sardis is told:

“3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (Revelation (RSV) 3).”

And you should probably read Hebrews 6:1-6 and 10:26-31 for good measure.

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews (RSV) 6)

26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews (RSV) 10)

I always injoy reading scripture over again. You have some point here?

 

[inkaneer]

My question presupposes nothing of the kind. It’s a simple question ink. This magisterium have a concordance then? Where can I get one?

Insert into any online search engine the words, ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’, I told you this before why do we need to constantly repeat things to you?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Insert into any online search engine the words, ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’, I told you this before why do we need to constantly repeat things to you?

I’m sorry I meant commentary. Does the CC have a commentary where this all important infallable interpretation is laid out in a verse by verse commentary?

 

[inkaneer]

Again let me ask you. Is there anything in this sacred tradition that is necessary for our salvation and is not contained in scripture? If there isn’t, if everything we need can be found in scripture, we really don’t need this tradition, do we? If there is something, what is it?

Your question presupposes that everything we need can be found in scripture that is necessary for our salvation. Is this scriptural? Give me the verse that says this. The question is a red herring because it has no scriptural basis. Someone, without any authority told you that everything you need to be saved can be found in scripture and now you parrot it. So come on now Mr. sola scripturist show me where scripture says that everything you need to be saved is contained in scripture. Because I can show you where scripture claims the church, not scripture, is what upholds the truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Your question presupposes that everything we need can be found in scripture that is necessary for our salvation. Is this scriptural? Give me the verse that says this. The question is a red herring because it has no scriptural basis. Someone, without any authority told you that everything you need to be saved can be found in scripture and now you parrot it. So come on now Mr. sola scripturist show me where scripture says that everything you need to be saved is contained in scripture. Because I can show you where scripture claims the church, not scripture, is what upholds the truth.

Ink, these are questions. I’m not presupposing anything. I do however pose some hypotheticals.

** If** scripture contains all the information we need to gain eternal life, as it seems to say in 2Tim3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

why do we need this oral tradition? If it doesn’t contain the information we need, what is that information?

 

[inkaneer]

Ink, these are questions. I’m not presupposing anything. I do however pose some hypotheticals.

** If** scripture contains all the information we need to gain eternal life, as it seems to say in 2Tim3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

why do we need this oral tradition? If it doesn’t contain the information we need, what is that information?

Why did the Jews need the Jewish scriptures? Did not Jesus say in Matthew 22:34-40:

"34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad’ducees, they came together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

If the whole law could be reduced to just two commandments why did the Jews need the rest of it?

As for 2Tim3:15 let us not forget 2Tim 3:14 or 2Tim 3:16:

“14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” [2Timothy 3:14-16 RSV]

Notice in verse 14 the words, “… *knowing from whom you learned it *” Timothy did not learn everything from the scriptures. Also verse 16 where it says that scriptures are profitable for teaching… being profitable is not the same as being all we need. Then verse 17 which says, “so that man might be equipped for every good work”. That is far removed from saying all we need for salvatiion is in the scriptures. Besides are we saved by good works?

Here is what Basil the Great said of Scripture and Tradition

*“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]). *

And this is exactly what protestantism and sola scriptura has done. And even more to the point is Vincent of Lerins who in 434 AD wrote:

"*Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

“Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]). *

Can you see that what these early church writers wrote came true in protestantism?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Why did the Jews need the Jewish scriptures? Did not Jesus say in Matthew 22:34-40:

"34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad’ducees, they came together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

If the whole law could be reduced to just two commandments why did the Jews need the rest of it?

As for 2Tim3:15 let us not forget 2Tim 3:14 or 2Tim 3:16:

“14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” [2Timothy 3:14-16 RSV]

Notice in verse 14 the words, “… *knowing from whom you learned it *” Timothy did not learn everything from the scriptures. Also verse 16 where it says that scriptures are profitable for teaching… being profitable is not the same as being all we need. Then verse 17 which says, “so that man might be equipped for every good work”. That is far removed from saying all we need for salvatiion is in the scriptures. Besides are we saved by good works?

Here is what Basil the Great said of Scripture and Tradition

*“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]). *

And this is exactly what protestantism and sola scriptura has done. And even more to the point is Vincent of Lerins who in 434 AD wrote:

"*Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

“Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]). *

Can you see that what these early church writers wrote came true in protestantism?

You haven’t answered the questions. You make a big deal out of saying that everything we need for our salvation is not in scripture but you steadfastly refuse to say what it is that we do need. I don’t get it Ink, what’s the secret? Could it be that you cannot answer the questions that there is nothing in your oral tradition that is essential to our salvation that is not contained in scripture?

 

[Irish_Polock]

You haven’t answered the questions. You make a big deal out of saying that everything we need for our salvation is not in scripture but you steadfastly refuse to say what it is that we do need. I don’t get it Ink, what’s the secret? Could it be that you cannot answer the questions that there is nothing in your oral tradition that is essential to our salvation that is not contained in scripture?

Richard, lets know your thoughts about what one needs for salvation? Then I can give you and example of how tradition has worked for the Catholic Church.

 

[Irish_Polock]

I always injoy reading scripture over again. You have some point here?

Focus Richard. The point is, is that Scripture is clearly teaching that confession of sins as a necessity to our salvation (your ecclesiastical community would know this if they too had the benefit of Sacred Tradition - see how that works?). I am not sure how i was being confusing - of course, unless your just being obtuse.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard, lets know your thoughts about what one needs for salvation? Then I can give you and example of how tradition has worked for the Catholic Church.

You know it’s interesting that you ask for my thoughts about what one needs for salvation, when it doesn’t matter at all what I think. What does matter is what God thinks and I believe that is expressed in His word. So I think what is needed for our salvation is what God says we need for our salvation. Here’s a short list.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Luke1
67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Simon the prophet when he saw the baby Jesus
Luke2
29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Jn3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts4
10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Rom1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom.10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph.1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Thess.5
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2Tim.2
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Heb.5
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb9
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And really Irish I’m not interested in how tradition works for the CC. What I am interested in is if you feel their is something in your tradition that is not contained in scripture that is essential to our salvation. This isn’t an extremely difficult question. Yet I have posted it on many threads and have yet to get a straight answer.

 

[joe370]

You haven’t answered the questions. You make a big deal out of saying that everything we need for our salvation is not in scripture but you steadfastly refuse to say what it is that we do need. I don’t get it Ink, what’s the secret? Could it be that you cannot answer the questions that there is nothing in your oral tradition that is essential to our salvation that is not contained in scripture?

Richard, is the following statement correct:

Only scripture is given by inspiration of God, and only scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard, is the following statement correct:

Only scripture is given by inspiration of God, and only scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…

I don’t see anything that tells me any different.

 

[inkaneer]

You haven’t answered the questions. You make a big deal out of saying that everything we need for our salvation is not in scripture but you steadfastly refuse to say what it is that we do need. I don’t get it Ink, what’s the secret? Could it be that you cannot answer the questions that there is nothing in your oral tradition that is essential to our salvation that is not contained in scripture?

I really can’t believe you said that. Let me spell it out for you in one word, INTERPRETATION. The scriptures are to be interpreted in the light of Tradition. This is something that is lacking in protestantism and sola scriptura and just as Basil the Great predicted the lack of this Tradition in protestantism reduces christianity to a mere term. That is why Vincent of Lerins said, “…sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .” Do we see this today in protestantism? We surely do and the myriads of protestant denominations conclusively prove it.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I really can’t believe you said that. Let me spell it out for you in one word, INTERPRETATION. The scriptures are to be interpreted in the light of Tradition. This is something that is lacking in protestantism and sola scriptura and just as Basil the Great predicted the lack of this Tradition in protestantism reduces christianity to a mere term. That is why Vincent of Lerins said, “…sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .” Do we see this today in protestantism? We surely do and the myriads of protestant denominations conclusively prove it.

So we need “INTERPRETATION” over and above the sacrifice of Christ. How do you interpret this verse ink?

Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[inkaneer]

So we need “INTERPRETATION” over and above the sacrifice of Christ. How do you interpret this verse ink?

Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I would agree wholeheartedly with it . Then I would ask what does the part “…but by me” mean. And scripture does not completely tell you that. Oh, it says, “believe on the Lord and you will be saved” but what does that mean? That is what the Tradition, the constant teaching of the church tells you. And that I say it means that if Jesus established A church then if you believe in Jesus then you belong to that church and you believe it that church. I say if Jesus says:

“53…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” [John 6:53-58 RSV]

and confirms that with:

"Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” [Mt 26:26-28 RSV]

And the church interprets it as a reality and not as a symbol then you believe it. Jesus never said the Eucharist wasa symbol. He said, This IS my Body and This IS**** my Blood. No symbolism here, no figurative speech; it is what Jesus said it is. That is what the Church has constantly taught as part of its Tradition. so what of your denomination? Compare your denominations beliefs with that of the early church. If you do you will find there is no comparison. You have done exactly what Basil said would happen. You have reduced christianity to a mere term. We, as Catholics, march in communion with that early church. Their beliefs are our beliefs. Those scriptures which you hold so dear are entirely Catholic. Your denomination did not come up with a canon of scripture. We did. The only thing your denomination has done is take away from the scriptures. You have stripped them of their proper interpretation and have added your own.

Now I have explained this to you as best I can. If you can not understand what I have posted then I can not offer you any further help. I will no longer post on this thread. Farewell.