Infallability

[Irish_Polock]

You know it’s interesting that you ask for my thoughts about what one needs for salvation, when it doesn’t matter at all what I think. What does matter is what God thinks and I believe that is expressed in His word. So I think what is needed for our salvation is what God says we need for our salvation. Here’s a short list.

2Tim3: 15-17
Luke1: 67-79
Simon the prophet when he saw the baby Jesus
Luke2: 29-32
Jn3: 16
Jn14: 6
Acts4: 10-12
Rom1:16
Rom.10: 9-10
Eph.1:12-13
1Thess.5: 8-10
2Tim.2: 10
Heb.5: 9
Heb9: 27-28

And really Irish I’m not interested in how tradition works for the CC. What I am interested in is if you feel their is something in your tradition that is not contained in scripture that is essential to our salvation. This isn’t an extremely difficult question. Yet I have posted it on many threads and have yet to get a straight answer.

First Richard, it is apparent that your being obtuse, others and myself have described in detail, the relationship between Sacred Scripture and Tradition - it is you, who has refused to understand.

Apparently, if you are using the same Scripture that I am using - and this is your interpretation of all one needs for their salvation - you are getting a different message then if you had the light of Tradition and the Holy Spirit. The “Sola Fida” position is porous , and can easily be debunked (St. James 2:24). And while there is nothing in Tradition that will contradict Scripture, without the light of Tradition your interpretation of scripture WILL contradict what Scripture has taught us.
And this is where Sacred Tradition is essential interpreting Scripture - and without it only leads to heresy, and history has proven this.

So according to your interpreted list of what one needs in order to be saved, I will say that while faith in Christ is essential, your interpretation is lacking Baptism (Acts 3:28-29; Rom 6:1-4; 1; St. Pet 3:21), good works (St. James 2:24, St.Matt. 5:1-48; 16:27; 12:36-37; 25:14-46; St. John 5:28-29, and many, many more) and of course love.

Like I have said before, there is nothing in Sacred Traditions that will contradict Scripture, they are of the same substance. If your looking for something that does, you will be sadly disappointed. Catholicism defined the Canon of Scriptures with the grace of the Holy Spirit - which will guide the Church in interpreting them correctly and without error.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180).

Also Richard, could you please give me YOUR definition of Tradition? Maybe YOUR definition would help me figure out what exactly you’re wanting us to say.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I would agree wholeheartedly with it . Then I would ask what does the part “…but by me” mean. And scripture does not completely tell you that. Oh, it says, “believe on the Lord and you will be saved” but what does that mean? That is what the Tradition, the constant teaching of the church tells you. And that I say it means that if Jesus established A church then if you believe in Jesus then you belong to that church and you believe it that church.:

So, when Jesus says 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. You say what He really means is that no man comes to the Father, but by me and my church? Is that right? And this would be an example of the inerrant “INTERPRETATION” of your oral tradition?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

First Richard, it is apparent that your being obtuse, others and myself have described in detail, the relationship between Sacred Scripture and Tradition - it is you, who has refused to understand.

Well again I’m not interested in the relationship between scripture and your tradition. All I want to know is if you feel there is something in your tradition that is not in scripture that is essential for our salvation and if you feel there is what is it? You have called me obtuse twice now. I’m not sure why you feel it necessary to insult me. But if it is your desire, that is the quickest way I know of to end this dialogue. We are after all Christians and need to present ourselves in the love of Christ.

Apparently, if you are using the same Scripture that I am using

These scriptures aren’t in your bible?

• and this is your interpretation of all one needs for their salvation - you are getting a different message then if you had the light of Tradition and the Holy Spirit. The “Sola Fida” position is porous , and can easily be debunked (St. James 2:24). And while there is nothing in Tradition that will contradict Scripture, without the light of Tradition your interpretation of scripture WILL contradict what Scripture has taught us.
  And this is where Sacred Tradition is essential interpreting Scripture - and without it only leads to heresy, and history has proven this

So according to your interpreted list of what one needs in order to be saved, I will say that while faith in Christ is essential, your interpretation is lacking Baptism (Acts 3:28-29; Rom 6:1-4; 1; St. Pet 3:21), good works (St. James 2:24, St.Matt. 5:1-48; 16:27; 12:36-37; 25:14-46; St. John 5:28-29, and many, many more) and of course love.

All this is fine , but it has nothing to do with the question at hand. All the verses you quote here are from the bible, not from your tradition, right?

Like I have said before, there is nothing in Sacred Traditions that will contradict Scripture, they are of the same substance. If your looking for something that does, you will be sadly disappointed. Catholicism defined the Canon of Scriptures with the grace of the Holy Spirit - which will guide the Church in interpreting them correctly and without error.

So, your church has an inerrant commentary in which I can look up any scripture verse and get it’s infallible interpretation, right?

Also Richard, could you please give me YOUR definition of Tradition? Maybe YOUR definition would help me figure out what exactly you’re wanting us to say.

Again it doesn’t matter what I think.

Matthew 15
1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark7
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1Peter1
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

[pablope]

So, when Jesus says 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. You say what He really means is that no man comes to the Father, but by me and my church? Is that right? And this would be an example of the inerrant “INTERPRETATION” of your oral tradition?

Richard…i know that you are a good man, and you are truly searching for Christ and salvation.

Here is a story to reflect on and I hope would help you find answers: envoymagazine.com/backissues/0.1/solved.htm

I would hope that you would find the time to read it.

 

[pablope]

Well again I’m not interested in the relationship between scripture and your tradition. All I want to know is if you feel there is something in your tradition that is not in scripture that is essential for our salvation and if you feel there is what is it? You have called me obtuse twice now. I

These scriptures aren’t in your bible?

So, your church has an inerrant commentary in which I can look up any scripture verse and get it’s infallible interpretation, right?

Again it doesn’t matter what I think.

Matthew 15

Mark7
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1Peter1
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

For whatever it is worth, let me make an attempt as an example:

Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Question: What is the will of the Father then? How will you know that it is the true will that you are doing, that you are following?

Matthew 16:24-27 (King James Version)

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Question: What “cross” is Jesus talking about here? About losing your own soul? Which “works” will be worthy of the reward Jesus is talking about here?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

For whatever it is worth, let me make an attempt as an example:

Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Question: What is the will of the Father then? How will you know that it is the true will that you are doing, that you are following?

Jn.1
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn.6
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 16:24-27 (King James Version)

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Question: What “cross” is Jesus talking about here?

The cross of which Jesus speaks is the inevitable persecution that a Christian will endure because of the Gospel message.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 5
10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

About losing your own soul?

If you place your focus on aquiring and maintaining the things of the world you will lose your soul, because you can’t serve two masters.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Which “works” will be worthy of the reward Jesus is talking about here?

Obedience to the commandments.

 

[Cruxis117]

Obedience to the commandments.

Which commandments? Does this include the ones that Christ instituted?

And if this includes the ones that Christ instituted, then does this not mean that helping the poor, the lowly, and the needy, would be following the Commandments?

Therefore, doing “good works”, or following the commandments (including love your neighbor), are the works that are spoken of.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Well again I’m not interested in the relationship between scripture and your tradition. All I want to know is if you feel there is something in your tradition that is not in scripture that is essential for our salvation and if you feel there is what is it? You have called me obtuse twice now. I’m not sure why you feel it necessary to insult me. But if it is your desire, that is the quickest way I know of to end this dialogue. We are after all Christians and need to present ourselves in the love of Christ.

Richard, there has been at least 5 different post with a more then adequate amount of data to allow even a young child to understand Sacred Tradition, and yet you keep asking if “there is something in our tradition that is not in scripture that is essential for our salvation”… I can only conclude that you’re being purposefully obtuse. I have realized that you’re an intelligent person through our conversations and I feel that you’re faithfully following your beliefs as you know them. That being said, I am at a loss as to why you still don’t understand Tradition as defined by the Church.

I will entertain you though Richard, I would agree that Scripture contains everything concerning salvific principles, Albeit, it would pertain only to the interpretation of said Scripture, Lets take St. John 3:5 for an example.

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (St. John (RSV) 3)

As I understand SDA theology, this is a symbolic reference to water, and has no salvific value.

1. Baptism:
   By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Catholic Church (along with several protestant communities), has always taught since the establishment of the Church of Christ and the Early Church Fathers that the water of St. John 3:5 refers to water baptism, which is not a symbol but the very means to receive the grace of God to cleanse one from Original Sin. But by what authority does one confidently determine which interpretation is true?

We can determine by logical principles of textual exegesis (which I could gladly go into detail about) that St. John’s water refers to effectual water baptism and is neither referring to the Bible nor a symbolic ceremony signifying salvation.

Human interpretation only gives plausible answers, but we can never know for sure if the plausible answer is the correct answer, unless we have help from another source. What is that source? That source is St. John the apostle. We have to go back and ask St. John what he meant when he used “water” in St. John 3:5. But how does one ask St. John? He’s dead. Granted, but we know the people who knew St. John. They wrote down what St. John taught them. For example, St. Polycarp writes about knowing St. John the apostle personally, and St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. Polycarp. St Justin Martyr also lived during that time. These Fathers said they received their teachings from the apostles and they passed them on to other Fathers (Sacred Tradition). So, we know the Catholic exegesis of St. John 3:5 is possible by using sound principles of exegesis, but we can only be sure that this interpretation is correct because we have the recorded testimony from those closest to St. John. This is how the Catholic Church has used the “Light” of Sacred Tradition.

Now, as far as there being something in Tradition that is required for salvation, I would have to say “in a sense there is” for according to St. John 3:5 “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" and without a proper and legitimate Baptism, one is not saved. This is not so in SDA theology - and several other communities that I can think of.

As in (St. Mark 12:18-27), Scripture itself is telling us about the nature of interpreting Scripture! Scripture is warning us that we can read a Scripture for a whole lifetime and never know its true meaning, unless someone divinely gifted in interpretation reveals it to us, as Jesus did with the Sadducees. No wonder 2 St. Peter 3:16 says that there are some Scriptures “that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” For this reason Catholicism has always insisted that only a God-directed, infallible Magisterium be given the first and last word on the interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

The thread has gone off topic.

CLOSED