Infallibility and Apostolic Succession

[YinYangMom]

So you’re saying that the magisterium doesn’t have free will in doctrinal matters?

Also, in any case, you’re still saying the magisterium doesn’t actually have infallibility.

Qouting Inigo Montoya from Princess Bride:
*You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. *

Magesterium is the teaching authority of the church. The church is represented by the body of all the bishops in union with the pope.

Each bishop, including the pope, has free will, certainly.
Each can exercise free will, certainly.
When it comes to ruling on doctrinal/dogmatic issues, the body is protected from ruling in error by the Holy Spirit.

This means that while there may very well be bishops within the council discussing the matter who, for whatever reason, willingly chose to speak against or for a particular position which is not in line with Church teaching (could be from pride, from politics, from monetary gain, from preserving one’s reputation, etc.), the rest of the group **will not be swayed **by their arguments because the Holy Spirit will reveal to them the insincerity of those bishops. The Holy Spirit may also choose to save those particular bishops during the debate, whereby they regain the strength to put their personal opinions aside for the benefit of the whole Church.

The magesterium in and of itself has the promise of infallibility** on matters of faith and morals.** When the bishops, individually or as a body, are discussing other matters outside that realm, infallibility is not promised. This is why the Church’s position on certain topics can change as their undersanding deepens with more information, more time, more revelation from the Spirit.

At least that’s my understanding.

 

[PC_Master]

Qouting Inigo Montoya from Princess Bride:
*You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. *

I love that movie.

Magesterium is the teaching authority of the church. The church is represented by the body of all the bishops in union with the pope.

So, the bishops by themselves do not consittute this magisterium, even when it’s all of the bishops?

Each bishop, including the pope, has free will, certainly.
Each can exercise free will, certainly.

To have free will is to allow the possibility of erring.

When it comes to ruling on doctrinal/dogmatic issues, the body is protected from ruling in error by the Holy Spirit.

So they don’t have the free will to ignore God here? This means they’re in unanimous consent?

This means that while there may very well be bishops within the council discussing the matter who, for whatever reason, willingly chose to speak against or for a particular position which is not in line with Church teaching (could be from pride, from politics, from monetary gain, from preserving one’s reputation, etc.),…

Okay, so one bishop/cardinal can err.

…the rest of the group **will not be swayed **by their arguments because the Holy Spirit will reveal to them the insincerity of those bishops.

So the rest of the group can’t choose to ignore the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit may also choose to save those particular bishops during the debate, whereby they regain the strength to put their personal opinions aside for the benefit of the whole Church.

So the Holy Spirit can overcome the free-willed ignorance of these people?

The magesterium in and of itself has the promise of infallibility** on matters of faith and morals.** When the bishops, individually or as a body, are discussing other matters outside that realm, infallibility is not promised. This is why the Church’s position on certain topics can change as their undersanding deepens with more information, more time, more revelation from the Spirit.

So, the church is always in total agreement with the pope then?

Believe it or not, I’m not trying to be difficult, but what you guys are saying doesn’t even make sense on a simple logical level.

 

[mdcpensive1]

It is interesting reading the posts to this thread concerning infallibility but it seems like it is becoming too complex in the replies for it to make a lot of simple sense.

So here goes an attempt at a simple example:

The Church established by Jesus is Holy. Part of what this means is that in its Holiness there can not be error as Jesus did not preach error and could not preach error. In fact, the Church is the Body of Christ and the Holiness of the Church is the Spirit of Christ. Even though authority has been given to successors of St. Peter who are still sinners, the Church which is the Spirit of Christ will not be allowed to be in error in matters of faith as Christ will never be in error. So when Christ says “whatever you shall bind on earth will be bound in heaven…” means that statements of faith proclaimed as truth by the authority given by Christ will be truth accepted by Christ in heaven where there will never be anything false.

Hope this helps,
mdcpensive1

 

[YinYangMom]

So, the bishops by themselves do not consititute this magisterium, even when it’s all of the bishops?

Pretty much, yep. Think about it in practical terms. Do you realize how much effort it takes to gather every cardinal and bishop in one place? That’s what it takes for ‘formal teachings’ of the church to be determined. The normal process would be for the pope to call them all together to address specific issues he is considering for review. The cardinals and bishops aren’t going to get together on their own initiative - the scheduling and expenses pretty much rule that out. But I think you’re thinking they might communicate by phone or email about a topic or two, find that they are in agreement about some issue and wish to declare their position ‘official’. If that were the case they would still have to submit their request to have their theory deliberated by the ‘magesterium’ - the entire body called together for the express purpose to rule upon a matter of faith and morals. Only the pope has the authority to call such a gathering, so they’d have to ask him to do so. If the pope grants the request then it isn’t until they present their findings to the pope and he rules on the matter that a teaching is official.

To have free will is to allow the possibility of erring.

As I stated, free will is what each individual bishop has. Each individual is capable of erring. And yes, it is possible one or more can err even in a formal gathering on matters of faith and morals. But if the matter is such then the Holy Spirit will protect the body as a whole, from any errant positions presented by those errant individual bishops. Their eyes will be able to see Truth.

So they don’t have the free will to ignore God here? This means they’re in unanimous consent?

Individual bishops can ignore God, but the body of bishops will be able to see through that and not be swayed by the arguments those bishops put forth. That is, if the matter under review is one of faith and/or morals. We have the promise of Our Lord on that. As for unanimous consent, I’m not sure about that.

So the rest of the group can’t choose to ignore the Holy Spirit?

Well because of free will each of the remaining bishops are capable of ignoring the Holy Spirit, but because of the promise of Our Lord, it’s not likely to play out that way.

Reflect on the story of Pentecost. All the apostles are waiting in a closed room. They walked, talked and ate with Jesus, they saw him die, they saw him rise, they saw him ascend into heaven. And yet it wasn’t until the Paraclete sent by Jesus descended upon them that all they needed to know about the past, present and future, with regard to God’s saving plan for mankind was revealed to them so that they understood it all. It was one big Holy ‘aha!’ moment. All the pieces, and them some, clicked together at last. So much so that they left that room and began sharing the gospel in such a way that everyone was able to hear the Good News in their own tongue.

This is the same Spirit guiding/protecting the magisterium.

So the Holy Spirit can overcome the free-willed ignorance of these people?

The Holy Spirit can protect these people from being tempted by Satan at the very least, and certainly at the most, can reveal to whomever He chooses in the room as much of the Truth needed to ensure the decision protects the flock. Do you honestly believe the Holy Spirit is limited in what He can do to protect God’s people?

So, the church is always in total agreement with the pope then?

Again you must distinguish between matters of faith and morals, and everything else. If by church, you mean, all the bishops 100 % of the time, then the answer is of course not. The church is a living, growing entity. It has to change in many ways in order to continue to serve the Lord effectively.

Believe it or not, I’m not trying to be difficult, but what you guys are saying doesn’t even make sense on a simple logical level.

Perhaps it’s because we trust in the promise of our Lord. That promise gives us the confidence we need to be able to lovingly obey the teachings of the church on matters of faith and morals even when we don’t understand the teachings or agree with them ourselves. Once one knows God’s will with 100% certainty, it’s rather presumptuous and careless to go against it just because one doesn’t ‘get it’.

 

[PC_Master]

Okay, so, let’s look at the logic…

1. Individual bishops are fallible on their own. Each has free will, including the ability to ignore God.
2. In defining matters of faith and morals, one or more bishops may be fallible. This is because they can choose to ignore the will of God.
3. Somehow, despite God allowing free will, to the point where some may err, God is guaranteeing that he will override the free will of a majority of bishops to ensure that they choose correctly?

The Holy Spirit can protect these people from being tempted by Satan at the very least, and certainly at the most, can reveal to whomever He chooses in the room as much of the Truth needed to ensure the decision protects the flock. Do you honestly believe the Holy Spirit is limited in what He can do to protect God’s people?

I don’t believe he’s limited, no. But that doesn’t mean I assume he’ll do what’s sensible to me. After all, why doesn’t he simply jump down from heaven every year and talk to the people, explaining that he is real? He could perform a few miracles, etc. That would convince a lot of atheists.

But for some reason, he’s chosen not to do this. Likewise, I believe he can choose to not interfere with the free will of religious leaders.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Okay, so, let’s look at the logic…

1. Individual bishops are fallible on their own. Each has free will, including the ability to ignore God.

fallible individuals yes. They are sinners. They aren’t impeccable. They can decide to ignore God, but that itself is a sin. A good bishop who represents the shepard must follow the ways of the Master, Jesus Christ.

1. In defining matters of faith and morals, one or more bishops may be fallible. This is because they can choose to ignore the will of God.

The defining matters of faith and morals is the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Much like it was during the First Council, the Council of Jerusalem. All the Twelve Apostles at time as one is Magisterial Authority.

1. Somehow, despite God allowing free will, to the point where some may err, God is guaranteeing that he will override the free will of a majority of bishops to ensure that they choose correctly?

When a Council gathers the bishops discusses the issue. Not only do they discuss, but they offer prayers, fasting, and almsgiving. When the Magisterial Authority teaches moral and faith issue, it is the Holy Spirit who guides them. Thus preventing error.

I don’t believe he’s limited, no. But that doesn’t mean I assume he’ll do what’s sensible to me. After all, why doesn’t he simply jump down from heaven every year and talk to the people, explaining that he is real? He could perform a few miracles, etc. That would convince a lot of atheists.

But for some reason, he’s chosen not to do this. Likewise, I believe he can choose to not interfere with the free will of religious leaders.

The unchanging teaching of the Catholic Church, the deposit of faith has remain unchanged. Just as God is immutable and cannot change his mind, the Church therefore cannot change what it affirms to be morally right and wrong.

When the Magisterium issued that contraception was immorally evil and sinful, it only upheld a moral belief that such acts are not pleasing to God. The Church teaches this in accordance to Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition.

 

[PC_Master]

The defining matters of faith and morals is the guidance of the Holy Spirit…When the Magisterial Authority teaches moral and faith issue, it is the Holy Spirit who guides them. Thus preventing error.

So how does the holy spirit accomplish this, if not by supressing the free will of some of them?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So how does the holy spirit accomplish this, if not by supressing the free will of some of them?

The Holy Spirit guided the Magisterium when she teaches moral and faith issue only because these teachings are part of the deposit of faith.

How can it be supressing? When the teach taught as early as the First Century that abortion is sinful based on the Didache, which states, “thou shall not kill an infant through an abortion.”

The Church today is strongly oppose to and it cannot change. I don’t think the Holy Spirit suppress the free will. It’s much like the Council of Jerusalem concerning the Judaizers (who believe that to be saved was to be circumcised. The Council of Jerusalem said Gentile can don’t have to be circumcised).

 

[PC_Master]

Okay, you’re saying the magisterium will be free from error. This means that they cannot be incorrect. Following so far?

However, you’re also saying that one or more individuals can err, right? Let’s look at the logic…

1. Individuals can err. God won’t stop them.
2. Multiple individuals (in undecided quantities) can err. God won’t stop them.
3. It stands to reason, given 1 and 2, that the majority can also err, and God won’t stop them.

Either God is forcing them to do right (prohibiting them from error), or they (as a teaching authority) are not infallible. It’s that simple. Either there’s free will, or there’s infallibility. You cannot have both in the same situation. It’s not possible.

Regarding the council of Jerusalem – protestants value the information put forth there because it was spoken by men who were godly in their desires, and more importantly, because it fits in with what’s given elsewhere in scripture. We don’t believe that they were infallible, but rather that they simply made a God-honoring decision in that instance, much like individuals do sometimes. Doing something right doesn’t make one infallible.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Okay, you’re saying the magisterium will be free from error. This means that they cannot be incorrect. Following so far?

Yes it is free from error when it teaches within the lines of moral and faith matters.

However, you’re also saying that one or more individuals can err, right? Let’s look at the logic…

1. Individuals can err. God won’t stop them.

If they are not teaching moral and faith and state opinions, they can err on matters on personal opinions. As the teaching office (Magisterial) on moral and faith, she cannot.

1. Multiple individuals (in undecided quantities) can err. God won’t stop them.

That can never happen. When the entire Church, that is the Bishop in union with the Pope teaches within the grounds on moral and faith, she cannot error. Must I repeat myself?

1. It stands to reason, given 1 and 2, that the majority can also err, and God won’t stop them.

When the Church teaches moral and faith matters, it is not the bishop who speaks, or the Pope, but Christ who speaks through them. “He who hears you, hears me…” or “whatever you bind on earth shall be bind in heaven, whatever you loose on earth, shall be loose in heaven.”

Either God is forcing them to do right (prohibiting them from error), or they (as a teaching authority) are not infallible. It’s that simple. Either there’s free will, or there’s infallibility. You cannot have both in the same situation. It’s not possible.

Infallibility is free of error. In Catholic theology, when the Magisterium teaches in moral and faith matters she cannot error. On matters on personal opinions, they are not infallible.

Regarding the council of Jerusalem – protestants value the information put forth there because it was spoken by men who were godly in their desires, and more importantly, because it fits in with what’s given elsewhere in scripture. We don’t believe that they were infallible, but rather that they simply made a God-honoring decision in that instance, much like individuals do sometimes. Doing something right doesn’t make one infallible.

The Catholic Church understand the Council of Jerusalem declarations on the Gentile is infallible because the Holy Spirit guided the Church. Second, the testimony of St. Peter, St. Paul, and Barnabas witness the miracles of the Gentiles and that they were filled with the Holy Spirit. The Council of Jerusalem serves as a model for future Church Councils.

In your statement, you don’t believe the Council of Jerusalem was infallible? That is odd, we Catholics do. Circumcision is no longer necessary for Gentile converts.

 

[PC_Master]

Amazing. You just managed to avoid every point I made, and every question I asked. That’s not intended as an ad hominem, but I really am a bit frustrated at your lack of basic ability to read and comprehend what I’ve written.

Let me be clear – I was not suggesting anything regarding personal opinion. Everything I said should be taken as being in regard to the teaching of morals and faith. Every counterpoint you just made is based on some idea that I didn’t understand that the magisterium is only infallible in teaching faith and morals. However, as this is not the case (I understand the concept), let’s try this yet again…

When a council meets to decide a matter of faith or morals, or a group of bishops is teaching a particular faith/morals-related issue, Roman Catholics hold that the Holy Spirit speaks to those bishops on those matters.

However, those bishops can (as in, it is possible – I’m not saying they have to) ignore this voice, and act/teach/speak contrary to this, right? (Yes or no, please.)

In fact, from what has been said, I gather that multiple individual bishops can err at the same time on the same matter. Right? (Again, yes or no, please.)

Do you believe that, in these matters, God overrides the free will of any individual in this group to prohibit them (on an individual level – I’m not talking about the whole church here – just individuals) from teaching improperly? (Yes or no.)

Now, given those three answers (which are yes, yes, and no – at least, that’s what the answers should be), how do you justify that a group of individuals (any or all of whom can err in teaching) can make up a whole that is infallible? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Please, stop reading into it what you want the questions to be, and answer the questions that I asked.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So how does the holy spirit accomplish this, if not by supressing the free will of some of them?

Read this carefully its from the Catechism.

888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a **“supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, **"unfailingly adheres to this faith."417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p4.htm#890

 

[Mannyfit75]

Amazing. You just managed to avoid every point I made, and every question I asked. That’s not intended as an ad hominem, but I really am a bit frustrated at your lack of basic ability to read and comprehend what I’ve written.

Let me be clear – I was not suggesting anything regarding personal opinion. Everything I said should be taken as being in regard to the teaching of morals and faith. Every counterpoint you just made is based on some idea that I didn’t understand that the magisterium is only infallible in teaching faith and morals. However, as this is not the case (I understand the concept), let’s try this yet again…

When a council meets to decide a matter of faith or morals, or a group of bishops is teaching a particular faith/morals-related issue, Roman Catholics hold that the Holy Spirit speaks to those bishops on those matters.

However, those bishops can (as in, it is possible – I’m not saying they have to) ignore this voice, and act/teach/speak contrary to this, right? (Yes or no, please.)

No. If they the bishop ignore the voice, the final word on the matter is the Pope, so if he speaks from the Chair, the Church has made the final call, not the bishop who disagrees…

In fact, from what has been said, I gather that multiple individual bishops can err at the same time on the same matter. Right? (Again, yes or no, please.)

yes.
They can err but these err can be overruled by the Pope. They can but if there is a dissenting views, the Pope has the final word on matters concerning faith and moral.

Do you believe that, in these matters, God overrides the free will of any individual in this group to prohibit them (on an individual level – I’m not talking about the whole church here – just individuals) from teaching improperly? (Yes or no.)

Yes, indirectly directs them to enact certain teachings.

Now, given those three answers (which are yes, yes, and no – at least, that’s what the answers should be), how do you justify that a group of individuals (any or all of whom can err in teaching) can make up a whole that is infallible? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Please, stop reading into it what you want the questions to be, and answer the questions that I asked.

Relax no need to get frustrated here. Correct if I’m wrong, if the bishops differ on the views concerning a teaching on moral and faith, there is always a final voice, the Pope speaks and can settle the issue once and for all.

That is why you see consist teachings on moral and faith from the Catholic Church.

 

[YinYangMom]

PC Master,

You keep coming back to the ‘free will’ of individual bishops and God ‘overriding it’, if necessary, despite the numerous times people here have explained the power of the Holy Spirit to guide the bishops in their deliberations.

It’s not a matter of God forcing a bishop to vote contrary to his will. It’s a matter of God lifting the cloud of confusion from an individual bishop’s mind so that he may rule rationally and clearly on the matter at hand.

It’s not like all the bishops gather together and the Holy Spirit just magically reveals the Truth of the teaching being discussed. The Truth has to be sifted out from the discussions being held, with each bishop or groups of bishops contributing their findings/understandings on the matter.

Keep in mind that we have the promise of the Spirit’s protection because the gates of hell will constantly be hammering away at the Church, trying to bring it down. Satan’s greatest victories are those gained by bringing down one of the ordained. What better way to destroy the Church than from within?

If an individual bishop enters the gathering with a tainted soul (influenced by the manipulations of Satan such that he values his own personal intellectual opinion and reputation over the will of God in the matter) he will raise arguments within the debate against the Truth. Under normal circumstances that bishop might have a strong influence over the other bishops. Let’s say they have met a couple of months before the gathering and in their small group discussions the one bishop manages to convince the others in that group of his position. Once they all gather as a whole, the Holy Spirit will enable those same bishops to now see/hear that bishop’s arguments in a new light. When it comes to the vote, those bishops will vote for the Truth rather than the position they held entering the meeting.

As you can see, it’s not a matter of those bishops voting against their will, forced by the hand of God to do so. No. Instead, God sends through the Holy Spirit a reinforcement, if you will, of the gifts of wisdom, prudence, fortitude and such. Those bishops who enter the meeting prayerfully in submission to the will of God will be receptive to the gifts He will send them. Those who are tainted, for whatever reason, will enter with hardened hearts and closed minds. The Spirit will still reach out to those bishops and it is possible they will see the light, but if Satan’s grasp is such that it is not possible, then we are assured their arguments will not sway the rest from God’s truth.

When the magesterium meets to rule on matters of faith and morals there are prayers and rituals in place to help them open themselves to God’s will. The protection of the Holy Spirit in these gatherings is kind of like a booster shot immunizing the participants from succumbing to infectious thoughts against the Truth. If, indeed, as you hypothosize, every bishop in the council agrees upon an errant position of the teaching under review, we still have the promise of the Lord that the teaching will not be issued from the See. The Pope, as Mannyfit explained, would be the safeguard. We can trust that if he were to still rule against the bishops, that the Pope’s decision was according to God’s will.

You must remember that the pope is the Servant of Servants. All Christians are called to serve one another. How do we know what each of us needs at any given time? We open ourselves to the will of God day in and day out so that He can reveal to us where He needs us to be and what He needs us to do to best serve our fellow man. You may see this as God overruling our free will but it is not. It is us cooperating in His plan for creation.

By the way, take note of this photo from JPIIs funeral…the red robed gentlemen are cardinals. For as many as they are, there are many more bishops in the Catholic church (inclusive of the 22 rites). It would be a real stretch to have a gathering of all of them unanimously erring in their deliberations such that it would be left only to the Pope to safeguard the faithful, but all things are possible with God, and Satan is quite powerful so I don’t outright dismiss your hypothesis.

 

[PC_Master]

It’s not a matter of God forcing a bishop to vote contrary to his will. It’s a matter of God lifting the cloud of confusion from an individual bishop’s mind so that he may rule rationally and clearly on the matter at hand.

Do you not agree that the bishops could still choose to vote or act contrary to God’s will, even with this cloud of confusion lifted from them? If so, then they all could do so (hypothetically), and thus it’s possible for all of the bishops to fail as a group, thus not being infallible.

Keep in mind that we have the promise of the Spirit’s protection because the gates of hell will constantly be hammering away at the Church, trying to bring it down. Satan’s greatest victories are those gained by bringing down one of the ordained. What better way to destroy the Church than from within?

You assume that “the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” means a particular thing. On the other hand, most scholarship I’ve read says that the gates of hades were typically a reference to physical death. Thus, “death shall not prevail against it”. That says nothing of infallibility.

If an individual bishop enters the gathering with a tainted soul (influenced by the manipulations of Satan such that he values his own personal intellectual opinion and reputation over the will of God in the matter) he will raise arguments within the debate against the Truth. Under normal circumstances that bishop might have a strong influence over the other bishops. Let’s say they have met a couple of months before the gathering and in their small group discussions the one bishop manages to convince the others in that group of his position.

Okay.

Once they all gather as a whole, the Holy Spirit will enable those same bishops to now see/hear that bishop’s arguments in a new light. When it comes to the vote, those bishops will vote for the Truth rather than the position they held entering the meeting.

They can’t still allow Satan to control them? Either God makes it impossible for them to act incorrectly, or he doesn’t. Take your pick. If God does not force them to vote in a certain way, then they are, by their very nature, fallible.

No. Instead, God sends through the Holy Spirit a reinforcement, if you will, of the gifts of wisdom, prudence, fortitude and such. Those bishops who enter the meeting prayerfully in submission to the will of God will be receptive to the gifts He will send them. Those who are tainted, for whatever reason, will enter with hardened hearts and closed minds. The Spirit will still reach out to those bishops and it is possible they will see the light, but if Satan’s grasp is such that it is not possible, then we are assured their arguments will not sway the rest from God’s truth.

And just how many are guaranteed to be protected from Satan’s influence in this fashion? Can Satan not influence them all in an extreme way, or at least a majority?

If, indeed, as you hypothosize, every bishop in the council agrees upon an errant position of the teaching under review, we still have the promise of the Lord that the teaching will not be issued from the See. The Pope, as Mannyfit explained, would be the safeguard. We can trust that if he were to still rule against the bishops, that the Pope’s decision was according to God’s will.

So really, it the whole of the church isn’t infallible at all – it’s just the Pope who is infallible? (This is my current understanding of Roman Catholic teaching.)

You must remember that the pope is the Servant of Servants. All Christians are called to serve one another. How do we know what each of us needs at any given time? We open ourselves to the will of God day in and day out so that He can reveal to us where He needs us to be and what He needs us to do to best serve our fellow man. You may see this as God overruling our free will but it is not. It is us cooperating in His plan for creation.

Opening one’s-self to God’s will is not what I am talking about. I try to open myself to God’s will continually, and yet I am still tempted to go against what he’s told me. Sometimes I do what God wills me to do, but not always. That’s part of the nature of free will.

It would be a real stretch to have a gathering of all of them unanimously erring in their deliberations such that it would be left only to the Pope to safeguard the faithful, but all things are possible with God, and Satan is quite powerful so I don’t outright dismiss your hypothesis.

And if you don’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope, then it looks from the outside like the general idea is that the Pope simply won’t go against a vast majority of the bishops. That can be seen as simple politicking.

 

[YinYangMom]

Do you not agree that the bishops could still choose to vote or act contrary to God’s will, even with this cloud of confusion lifted from them? If so, then they all could do so (hypothetically), and thus it’s possible for all of the bishops to fail as a group, thus not being infallible.

eh…possible, perhaps. likely, no.
First of all, these bishops aren’t stupid by any means. They are very, very well educated in their fields of specialities, and each has several specialties. So, when facts, figures, theories and theologies are being discussed Truth is Truth. If the facts are there, evident for all to see, it would be near impossible for every body in the room to be unable to recognize Truth in black and white before their very eyes. The bishops are not automitons.

You assume that “the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” means a particular thing. On the other hand, most scholarship I’ve read says that the gates of hades were typically a reference to physical death. Thus, “death shall not prevail against it”. That says nothing of infallibility.

Even if I take your understanding, death is death.
The Church will never die.
For this to happen the Church would need to be protected from illnesses which may lead to Her death.
What are the symptoms of such illnesses? thoughts, words, actions contrary to Truth, the very Truth the Church was established to preserve, protect and share.
Whenever dissension arises within the Church, particularly on matters of faith and morals, the Church gathers to resolve the issues. Relying on the promise of Our Lord and the guidance of the Holy Spirit the teaching is able to be ‘healed’, if it was sick, or ‘vaccinated’, if it was at risk of becoming sick.

They can’t still allow Satan to control them?

They can, but why would they? Again, they’re not idiots. Even without the Holy Spirit, there are some matters of Truth that are just plain evident.

You underestimate the power of Truth and the Holy Spirit. Satan is a formidable foe, to be certain, but c’mon…you’re talking about him being able to succeed at corrupting every single bishop in that congregation, after they’ve gone to confession, recieved Christ in the Eucharist, prayed and opened their hearts to the Lord in the matters at hand. That’s one mighty force-field that Satan has yet, in 2000 years, to crack. That is our evidence that the promise is genuine, a solid track record.

Either God makes it impossible for them to act incorrectly, or he doesn’t. Take your pick. If God does not force them to vote in a certain way, then they are, by their very nature, fallible.

Individual bishops, in and of themselves, are, by their very nature, fallible. No one has ever claimed otherwise.

Gathered together as a whole to discuss matters of faith and morals, the body of bishops, is infallible due to the promise of our Lord and all the gifts He bestows upon them to help them resist the temptation to be swayed by error.

God doesn’t force any human to do anything, let alone vote in a certain way. He invites us all to love him and he loves us in return. These bishops have devoted their entire lives to loving God and serving Him. They have spent a lifetime receiving and appreciating God’s love for them.

Would it be easy for any person to outright abandon their loving father or mother when he/she is under attack? Would it even be likely? No. Even if a person disagrees with a loving parent on certain teachings they would still defend that parent’s position to outsiders should it fall under attack. Love and loyalty are strong influences for our actions. Never underestimate the power of love and always consider these bishops truly love the Church and Her teachings.

And just how many are guaranteed to be protected from Satan’s influence in this fashion? Can Satan not influence them all in an extreme way, or at least a majority?

Can? Probably. But again, you’re underestimating the power of the force-field God infuses on the body.

…continued

 

[YinYangMom]

continuation…

So really, it the whole of the church isn’t infallible at all – it’s just the Pope who is infallible? (This is my current understanding of Roman Catholic teaching.)

The Pope, in and of himself, is not infallible. His teachings are infallible when spoken from the Chair of Peter, or formally declared **on matters of the teaching of faith and morals. **The Pope can claim the sky is purple but that is not infallible because that has nothing to do with teachings on faith or morals.

The Pope, in his wisdom, relies on the whole of the church, represented by the bishops/cardinals and such to help him discern God’s will on matters of faith and morals.

Consider a pope recieves what appears to be a revelation. Even if the revelation was such that it’s 100% in line with prior Church teachings on a particular matter of faith or morals, he’d not trust in the revelation such that he’d go out the next day, sit at the Chair of Peter and declare the revelation to be True. That would be presumptuous of any human, let alone the servant of servants.

The pope, in his wisdom, as leader of God’s church, recognizes without a doubt the target his position makes him to Satan and his minions. There are no guarantees within private revelation that the source of the revelation is God. It could come from Satan. So he shares his revelation with a spiritual advisor, he certainly prays about it and asks others to pray for him. He opens himself further to God’s direction. If it isn’t from God, that will be weeded out through the spiritual advising and such and the issue would go no further.

If it is of God, then eventually the pope will call a council or synod so that the body of bishops can study the revelation and help him discern the will of God with regard to His church in this matter. This is why the body of bishops shares in the promise of infallibility on matters of faith and morals. They are God’s gift/assurance to His servant of servants that He is with him always, especially in this particular matter.

If the body of bishops rule the revelation was not true, then I’m certain the pope would seriously take that into consideration and I would expect him to endorse the ruling of the bishops.

IF he did not, and declared the teaching to be true without the support of the body of bishops, then I would trust in our Lord that the pope is doing the right thing, and I’d also be really, really concerned that the body of bishops was not able to see it. To be honest, that would be a rather frightening event. Fortunately, this is where the track record of the church comes in handy. That it hasn’t happened in the past is rather reassuring so I don’t lose any sleep wondering if it’s to happen any time soon. God’s proven He’s got things covered.

Opening one’s-self to God’s will is not what I am talking about. I try to open myself to God’s will continually, and yet I am still tempted to go against what he’s told me. Sometimes I do what God wills me to do, but not always. That’s part of the nature of free will.

True. I noted it is possible, and probable, that a number of bishops gathered to review teachings on faith and morals will still be tempted to go against what they ‘know’ is the Truth, but the rest of the bishops will be able to see the weakness in those bishops’ positions. They will be able to sense the lack of confidence, the insincerity, such that they will not be swayed by whatever arguments they put forth.

]And if you don’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope, then it looks from the outside like the general idea is that the Pope simply won’t go against a vast majority of the bishops. That can be seen as simple politicking.

The Pope can’t go against the vast majority of bishops if what the bishops put forth is Truth. That would mean Jesus lied to us, or that he breaks his promise. Both of those are impossible. Literally impossible.

So, not to be morbid or anything, but in all honesty, if that were to possibly happen I would expect the Pope to die a sudden death, or be incapacitated in such as way that his ‘personal’ opinion would not be put forth before he’s incapacitated. It’s my understanding this has happened in the past, though I’m no expert by any means. Seems I’ve read that around here in other threads in the past, or reference to that.

Why do you have such a hard time appreciating the power of the Lord and His love? Why do you doubt this Love is able to protect His faithful servants, especially when they are most vulnerable to the attacks of Satan? Do you doubt the Lord would come to rest upon His bishops in an intimate way when they gather to reflect upon His Truth and any attacks against it? Do you have such little faith in our Lord that He would abandon them at such a time?

 

[guanophore]

If you don’t mind, I’d like to place the burden of proof on you – How do you determine that the apostles were infallible (I assume this is your claim)? Second, how do you justify that this authority was passed down to successors.

I don’t believe it extends to the sense that the Catholic church would insist. So, I’d like to see some Biblical support for it.

That has already been done very well in this thread:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=150710&highlight=bible±the+source

 

[guanophore]

Okay, so, let’s look at the logic…

1. Individual bishops are fallible on their own. Each has free will, including the ability to ignore God.
2. In defining matters of faith and morals, one or more bishops may be fallible. This is because they can choose to ignore the will of God.
3. Somehow, despite God allowing free will, to the point where some may err, God is guaranteeing that he will override the free will of a majority of bishops to ensure that they choose correctly?

Why would you even assume that the “majority” of the bishops are in error? Do you really have that little faith that God can preserve His shepherds in the truth? How weak IS God! Of course God does not “override the free will” of anyone!

I believe he can choose to not interfere with the free will of religious leaders.

He will not interfere with the free will of anyone, religious leader or not!

 

[guanophore]

So how does the holy spirit accomplish this, if not by supressing the free will of some of them?

How does the Holy Spirit get you to do what you are supposed to do, when you don’t feel like it, or when you don’t understand His teachings correctly?