Infallibility and the Crusades

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So the Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals and ex cathedra.

So Pope Urban II guaranteed salvation for those who up took the first crusade? It seems a rather official statement on faith and morals in this case? Was he not speaking ex cathedra? Or was he right and all those received salvation?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this as the pope granting an indulgence for sins to those who went on the crusade?
 
I would say that he probably was right if this is indeed what he said and what he said was not taken out of context or anything.
 
Holly3278 said:
I would say that he probably was right if this is indeed what he said and what he said was not taken out of context or anything.
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So the Pope can grant salvation to someone just like that, without them being baptized, or having confessed that Christ is their Savior?
 
katholikos12 said:
So the Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals and ex cathedra.

So Pope Urban II guaranteed salvation for those who up took the first crusade? It seems a rather official statement on faith and morals in this case? Was he not speaking ex cathedra? Or was he right and all those received salvation?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this as the pope granting an indulgence for sins to those who went on the crusade?
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You have the source?
 
“God himself will lead them, for they will be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it!” gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

I have found several sources, just google “pope urban II absolution” I had trouble finding a Catholic source to be fair.

Its supposedly straight from his speech.
 
Popes afterwards also granted absolution. Just google Popes Absolution Crusades and results will appear.
 
Sounds like a question to ask of Fr. Serpa.

Sidebar: IMHO Yahoo answers is … suspect…IMHO.
 
certainly so! I am definitely looking for answers as opposed to making an accusation. I have only been studying from an apologetics standpoint for about two months so I am looking for a more knowledgeable source on this.
 
so send this question to the “Ask an Apologist” section?
 
Methinks the Just War concept is entwined in the answer as well. I Personally wrestle with this one too!
 
katholikos12 said:
So the Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals and ex cathedra.

So Pope Urban II guaranteed salvation for those who up took the first crusade? It seems a rather official statement on faith and morals in this case? Was he not speaking ex cathedra? Or was he right and all those received salvation?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this as the pope granting an indulgence for sins to those who went on the crusade?
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And when he deliberately states something infallibly.

Which is how many times?

Or was he speaking as a very influential person, who, using his own prudential judgement, thought that those who went on the crusades, would be saved?

Also, is the following not true for all Christians; ***There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy ***?

You don’t need to be a Pope to know that is true;)
 
I’ve seen a few different ‘sources’ wrt Urban’ s speech. None are transcriptions, but rather, others’ recollections of his words.

Let me ask you a question, though: what does John 15:13 (“Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”) imply? If a person martyrs himself for another, what does the Church say happens to him?

With that in mind, re-read your quote. Urban isn’t talking about people who go on the First Crusade - he’s talking about people who die while on it. See the difference? Get the implication? 😉
 
triumphguy said:
And when he deliberately states something infallibly.

Which is how many times?

Or was he speaking as a very influential person, who, using his own prudential judgement, thought that those who went on the crusades, would be saved?

Also, is the following not true for all Christians; ***There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy ***?

You don’t need to be a Pope to know that is true;)
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Where is the bold from? is it a quote and from whom?
 
“If those who go thither lose their lives on land or sea during the journey, or in battle against the pagans, their sins will at once be forgiven; I grant this through the power of God conferred on me,”

Regine (ed.), “The Crusades”, translated by Enid McLeod, G.P. Putnum’s Sons, New York, 1962, p. 23, 24

This also taken from that speech (I realize it may not be a transcription) makes it seem that he is enacting the salvific action based on his powers as Pope.

I know there is an explanation with the transference of power as he is a ordained priest in Christ’s new covenant, but I can’t put it all together sensibly in my head.

What gives him the authority to grant salvation?
 
katholikos12 said:
What gives him the authority to grant salvation?
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Let me try again ;):

it’s not so much that he’s granting salvation, per se. Rather, it’s that he’s declaring something about the nature of the crusade: anyone who dies on the crusade is a martyr.
 
Gorgias said:
Let me try again ;):

it’s not so much that he’s granting salvation, per se. Rather, it’s that he’s declaring something about the nature of the crusade: anyone who dies on the crusade is a martyr.
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What gives the Pope the right to declare that they are all martyrs if they die? Also the verse you stated earlier talks of the level of ones love; not that an act of perfect love will guarantee salvation.
 
katholikos12 said:
So the Pope is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals and ex cathedra.

So Pope Urban II guaranteed salvation for those who up took the first crusade? It seems a rather official statement on faith and morals in this case? Was he not speaking ex cathedra? Or was he right and all those received salvation?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this as the pope granting an indulgence for sins to those who went on the crusade?
Click to expand...
I would say the dogmatic definitions of the 21 Councils and Munificentissimus Deus and Ineffabilis Deus are the only statements with the guarantee of infallibility.

Though others are undoubtedly true, they’re just not protected the way those things are protected.

But more to your point, the Pope can’t simply will an unrepentant sinner to be saved.
 
katholikos12 said:
“If those who go thither lose their lives on land or sea during the journey, or in battle against the pagans, their sins will at once be forgiven; I grant this through the power of God conferred on me,”

Regine (ed.), “The Crusades”, translated by Enid McLeod, G.P. Putnum’s Sons, New York, 1962, p. 23, 24

This also taken from that speech (I realize it may not be a transcription) makes it seem that he is enacting the salvific action based on his powers as Pope.

I know there is an explanation with the transference of power as he is a ordained priest in Christ’s new covenant, but I can’t put it all together sensibly in my head.

What gives him the authority to grant salvation?
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If the quotes are anything like correct it could be general absolution that the Pope is granting.

And, if the crusades could be said to be a just war (and they might well be) then death could be said to be a form of martyrdom, which forgives sin.
 
katholikos12 said:
What gives the Pope the right to declare that they are all martyrs if they die?
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it’s a declaration about the nature of the conflict. By virtue of their coming to the aid of Christians in need, their deaths are martyrs’ deaths.
Also the verse you stated earlier talks of the level of ones love; not that an act of perfect love will guarantee salvation.
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I would disagree: I would say that it’s a statement that a particular kind of action is itself a demonstration of the level of love of one’s fellow man, not the other way around.

The “guaranteed salvation” thing isn’t a papal innovation; the notion of the reward of martyrdom was a long-standing teaching of the Church…
 
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