Infallibility and the Source of Authority

[Steven_Merten]

I believe that the Holy Spirit blows where it wills. Even basic parishoners bring a wealth of wisdom to the Church via the Holy Spirit. King David was not clergy, that I know of, and many of the prophets were not Israelite clergy, I believe. Yet how much closer to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit could the prophets who spoke the words of the Old Testament get?

Wisdom of the Holy Spirit blows through the whole (1.1 billion Catholics) Church. While the Holy Spirit of authority only flows through Apostolic successors.

 

[DianJo]

kaycee:

The Gospel of grace was being perverted! Luther was lucky they did not burn him at the stake! Was he to deny His Lord to keep unity?

He did not have to deny his Lord to keep unity. It has happened time and time again that you can reform things that need to be reformed and keep the unity. Luther was over scupulous, and prideful to think that suddenly he had all the right answers that for 1500 years had been believed by all the great teachers and scholars and theologians and church fathers who spent their entire lives to the service of keeping the faith true to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Keeping with the authority of the Church established by Christ would have been a great start with Luther - if only his pride hadn’t have gotten in the way. No, he didn’t need to deny his Lord to keep unity - he needed to OBEY his Lord and keep unity while he probably could’ve become one of the great reformers of the Church - instead he decided to give in to his pride.

Hasn’t anyone ever told you that there are ways of going about doing things that you want to see done. You don’t do it by attacking and being arrogant - you get no where like that.

 

[kaycee]

DianJo:

He did not have to deny his Lord to keep unity. It has happened time and time again that you can reform things that need to be reformed and keep the unity. Luther was over scupulous, and prideful to think that suddenly he had all the right answers that for 1500 years had been believed by all the great teachers and scholars and theologians and church fathers who spent their entire lives to the service of keeping the faith true to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

The big point is LUTHER was looking at what Scripture said and what the Church had become and saw a wide chasm! Being Faithfull to God and His word is where he was standing! The new Pope (cardinal Ratzinger) called the Catholic Church of LUTHER’s day “the adversary of salvation!”

in Principles of Catholic Theology, he writes,

“For nearly half a century, the Church was split into **two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, ** and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form–the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution. It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation.7”

 

[m4dc4p]

kaycee:

The new Pope (cardinal Ratzinger) called the Catholic Church of LUTHER’s day “the adversary of salvation!”

That’s a terrible misquote. It’s even contradicted by the passage you provide. He’s talking about LUTHER’S view of the Church. LUTHER was shaken by the recent schism with the three Popes. Nowhere is Ratzinger saying the Church was the “adversary of salvation”.

You are quoting from a chapter titled ‘Ecumenical Dispute.’ Ratzinger is surveying the field, apparently. In that same paragraph he cites a schism in Augustine’s time, but I don’t see you supporting the Donatists!

Later in the chapter, he states:

“In any event, church unity is not a political problem that can be solved by means of compromise … What is at stake here is unity of belief, that is, the question of truth … We may not interpret as truth that which is, in reality, a historical development with a more or less close relationship to truth.”

In other words, the schisms, the Reformation and especially the abuse of indulgences (or the sex-abuse, or any other scandal you care to raise) has NOTHING to do with the TRUTH that is in the Church and has ALWAYS been in the Church. Humans are weak and history shows that over and over. It doesn’t change Christ’s Truth or the Church HE founded.

For those who wish to read the relevant passages themselves, these links should work (amazon registration required):

Kaycee’s quotes: amazon.com/gp/reader/0898701333/ref=sib_rdr_prev2_ex196/103-1557274-2967026?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=every%20Catholic%20lived%20under%20excommunication%20by%20one%20pope&p=S05M&twc=1&checkSum=0qVsF4eesho62HrGGy7QJvkwRE6UBndLga2deDxDBaU%3D#reader-page

My quote: amazon.com/gp/reader/0898701333/ref=sib_rdr_next3_ex198/103-1557274-2967026?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=every%20Catholic%20lived%20under%20excommunication%20by%20one%20pope&p=S05O&twc=1&checkSum=F%2FgBAvzeIK6%2B5wmaBWqOkpwKxUbIsftQuDNBzYX%2FgH4%3D#reader-page

 

[kaycee]

In other words, the schisms, the Reformation and especially the abuse of indulgences (or the sex-abuse, or any other scandal you care to raise) has NOTHING to do with the TRUTH that is in the Church and has ALWAYS been in the Church. Humans are weak and history shows that over and over. It doesn’t change Christ’s Truth or the Church HE founded.

It has everything to do with Truth as the Catholic Church had changed the gospel of grace to something other than Faith alone!
The church is the body of believers Saved by GOD not an institution. Which pope of the 3 was infallable at the time? Clearly none! Were’nt they all claiming to be the true Pope? Offcourse they were! The church is built on Jesus and the profession of faith that Peter made as well as the other apostles who were given the same keys! The profession of saving faith is what gets you into the Body of Christ. HIS CHURCH. The institution was never declared to be infallable, but GOD’s word IS.

 

[NotWorthy]

kaycee:

It has everything to do with Truth as the Catholic Church had changed the gospel of grace to something other than Faith alone!

This quote is laughable! How can you seriously make this statement, considering that Luther added “Alone” to “Faith”, and make a statement that the Catholic Church is making changes to God’s Truth!

NotWorthy

 

[Kate1015]

kaycee:

It has everything to do with Truth as the Catholic Church had changed the gospel of grace to something other than Faith alone!

Dear Kaycee - if you haven’t had the opportunity to do so before, please get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see for yourself what the Church actually teaches about the gospel of grace. When I was a doctoral student, one of the first things they taught us was to consult primary sources (in otherwords, get it from the horses mouth - see what people actually said, rather than what others *said *they said). It’s an act of intellectual integrity to see what the Catholic Church actually teaches by consulting its own sources and documents. Look up “grace” in the index of the Catechism and I think you will be astounded at the power and beauty of what the Church actually teaches - if anything we are saved by grace alone. . . the only place you will see the term “faith alone” used in the Bible is in James 2:24, where he clearly states that we are not saved by faith alone. Your Sister in Christ, Kate