Infallibility of the Pope

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Raiderdad

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A non Catholic friend of mine asked:
I think the Bible makes it clear that NO MAN is infallible (Romans 3.21-24) I am using “infallible” the same way the dictionary says the Catholic Church intends it to mean: Dictionary.com says, Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.) Do you believe that he can tell you what the truth is and you must accept it, no matter what YOUR interpretation is or no matter what the Bible says?

and

You still have not addressed I Timothy 4 passage which seems to identify the Pope as “having departed from the faith”. At least on those subjects either he is wrong or Paul is wrong. For instance, what if you decided to ignore his decision that “birth control” was sinful (unless he’s changed his mind recently). Would you then reject HIS teaching or would you reject God’s teaching on the subject? One is right, one is wrong. There is no duplicity with God, “no wavering, no shadow of turning” (James 1.17)

My point, where do you see his position between you and God? God says there is ONE high priest and all of us are saints and priests with a direct relationship through Jesus, not a man, any man. (Again, the I Timothy 2 passage in verse 5). Seems kind of scary to put so much faith in a fallible man.

I am not an apologist but I do not see the relevance of these scriptures to papal infallibility and I could use some help.
 
Here’s some info. from ScriptureCatholic.com that might help:

The Church is Infallible and Supernatural
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
 
Continued:

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. “Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.

1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

1 John 4:6 – John writes that whoever knows God “listens to us” (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes “This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say “reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error.” But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.

Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?
 
Raiderdad, as far as 1 Tim. 4 goes, could you elaborate a little? I’m not sure what your trying say regarding the Holy Father departing from the faith.:confused:
 
Raiderdad,

I’m assuming this is the verse you are referring to in 1 Tim 4:
*4:3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. *

The Church does not forbid marriage - we recognize it as a holy Sacrament. At the time of the epistle and continuing for quite awhile after, there were some who considered all sex sinful, even sex within marriage, and therefore they condemned marriage. Paul is writing to condemn that teaching.

Regarding abstinence from foods: This is a reference to those who held all life was sacred and therefore it was wrong to kill animals for food - continual abstinence from meat!! It is not a reference to religious fasting, a periodic abstinence.

Nita
 
There’s a huge difference between abstaining for a day and then going back to good ol’ fashioned chow hounding on a juicy steak and abstaining permanently from meat because you think it’s sinful.

One is taking up our cross and walking with Jesus through the little sacrifices such as this. It tends to bring us closer to Christ.

The other is placing our own beliefs above those taught by Jesus and then later by Paul.
 
To all those who so kindly responded to my request for clarification of the bible verses in regard to infallibility, I thank you. It does appear that I did not make myself clear, however, in what I was asking.
A non-Catholic friend of mine sent me an e-mail challenging the Church’s stand on the infallibility of the Pope and he even went so far as to say that the Pople claims to be God.

He used the following quotes to bolster his argument, which I found to be confusing, with regards to his argument:

“I think the Bible makes it clear that NO MAN is infallible (Romans 3.21-24). Do you believe that he can tell you what the truth is and you must accept it, no matter what YOUR interpretation is or no matter what the Bible says?”
(I did not see how that scripture applied)

and my friend further stated:
“You still have not addressed I Timothy 4:1-5 passage which seems to identify the Pope as “having departed from the faith”. At least on those subjects either he is wrong or Paul is wrong. For instance, what if you decided to ignore his decision that “birth control” was sinful (unless he’s changed his mind recently). Would you then reject HIS teaching or would you reject God’s teaching on the subject? One is right, one is wrong. There is no duplicity with God, “no wavering, no shadow of turning” (James 1.17)”
(I also failed to see the relevance of this scripture, so that is why I asked for some help.)

I truly appreciate all of the information I have received to this point. May God bless you all and may your Easter be truly filled with the love and mercy of the Lord’s Resurrection.
 
Hi Raiderdad

Romans refers to sin, not infallibility. It states in vs.23 ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Which is the main point of that section, you must take things in context. There is no question all people - including all Popes past and present - have sinned. Infallibility means {in the CC} that the Pope is protected from teaching error in matters of Faith and Morals according to Matt. 16:17-19. Jesus states to Peter that he is the Rock upon which the Church will be built {both Peter himself, and his statement that Jesus is the Christ…this is a case of both/and}, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven…now just exactly how is this possible without #1 Authority…and #2 protection/guidance from above {Holy Spirit}?

I Tim was answered above…but again I would say…put things into context. Scipture cannot contradict scripture. This text is referring to cults and probably denominations {one in particular comes to mind}. As far as marriage within the Catholic Church - the only people forbidden are Priests and religious…and that mostly {I believe…someone correct me if I am wrong} comes from Pauls plea that all religious should abstain from marriage so that they may be devoted to Gods work…not their spouse. {I cor. 7:32-35}

Abstaining from meat is also covered in Romans 14:1-18 but we must be careful here as well…keep things in context, this is not saying we can branch off and form another whole division of the Church…it is meant for specific people within the Chuch who feel they are directed by God, or have weak faith and are struggling to understand.

As for who do we listen to, our own interpretation of scipture or the Churches…I think that has been made somewhat clear just by his confusion over the texts in question.

If your friend is rabidly anti-Catholic, nothing you say will have much effect on him. You will be trading scripture forever with him. Prayer is the most effective weapon…prepare yourself for a long battle in this case.

May God bless you during this Easter season!
 
Raiderdad said:
… and he even went so far as to say that the Pople claims to be God.
Click to expand...
That’s where I would just shake my head, and end the communication. He lost all credibility with that statement and seems to only want to raise the hair on the back of your neck.

But I hope you get what you are looking for, as many have more patience than I to endure these absurdities.
 
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