Infallible Church or infallible Word of God?

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big_guy144

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Who is infallible? The Church or the Word of God? The Church claims religion, sacraments, good works, Church, etc, are neccessary for salvation. The Bible teaches being born again (born of the Spirit), and faith alone in Jesus Christ is neccessary for salvation. The Church even claims that one must go through pains and sufferings in purgatory before he can enter into heaven. But is purgatory even in the Bible? Where does this idea of sacraments, purgatory, religious ceremonies, Church dogma come from? Is it in the Bible? If not, who do we believe? The Church or the Word of God?

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye," Mark 7:13.

"Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition," Mark 7:9

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big_guy144,
  1. How do you know the Bible IS the Word of God?
  2. SHOW ME where it says faith alone in Jesus after being “born of the spirit” is sufficient.
 
Adstrinity,

How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Based on the Church’s testimony? If so…how do you know the Church’s testimony is true? How is your “knowledge” of the Church being infallible superior or less circular than a protestants “knowledge” of the scriptures being infallible?
 
Ooh, methinks big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are a tag-team here to convert us wayward sinners!

Good luck with that, you worthless pieces of sh*t. Hell, I say any Catholic you filthy Protestant douchebags can convert wasn’t any Catholic to begin with.
 
Sgt. Howie:
Ooh, methinks big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are a tag-team here to convert us wayward sinners!
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Sgt. You have been reported to the moderators. Your rhetoric is unacceptable from anyone, on any terms, anywhere, especially to those who honor the Church by challenging her.

You characterize yourself on your profile as ‘Catholic-in-training.’ I certainly hope you get training in common respect and decency. I even suspect that you are **not **Catholic – in training or otherwise – but that you are characterizing yourself as a Catholic to give us a bad name.
 
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big_guy144:
Who is infallible? The Church or the Word of God? The Church claims religion, sacraments, good works, Church, etc, are neccessary for salvation. The Bible teaches being born again (born of the Spirit), and faith alone in Jesus Christ is neccessary for salvation.
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They both are. As for faith alone, the Bible teaches no such thing (some examples):
“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’” (Matt. 7:21).
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“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).
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“For he will render every man according to his works . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).
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“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).
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"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).
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“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” (Jas. 2:14).
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“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).
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"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).
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“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24).
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That last one is a real kicker. Probably why Luther wanted to axe James…
Where does this idea of sacraments, purgatory, religious ceremonies, Church dogma come from? Is it in the Bible?
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catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
Catholic dogma comes from the Bible and Tradition (technically the Bible is a subset of Tradition) and is explained by the Magesterium.
“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye,” Mark 7:13.
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“Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition,” Mark 7:9
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See though, it’s not our own tradition, it’s God’s Tradition.
If not, who do we believe? The Church or the Word of God?
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Again, both. They do not contradict one another.
 
Sgt. Howie:
Ooh, methinks big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are a tag-team here to convert us wayward sinners!

Good luck with that, you worthless pieces of sh*t. Hell, I say any Catholic you filthy Protestant douchebags can convert wasn’t any Catholic to begin with.
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Shame on you. :tsktsk: :mad: . You give the rest of us a bad name.
 
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mercygate:
Sgt. You have been reported to the moderators. Your rhetoric is unacceptable from anyone, on any terms, anywhere, especially to those who honor the Church by challenging her.

You characterize yourself on your profile as ‘Catholic-in-training.’ I certainly hope you get training in common respect and decency. I even suspect that you are **not **Catholic – in training or otherwise – but that you are characterizing yourself as a Catholic to give us a bad name.
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mercygate, I am simply a man (in RCIA, if you must know) who has grown very passionate about the Catholic faith, and who is *disgusted *by the arrogant, ignorant behavior of these Protestants who are here for the sole reason of converting Catholics to fundamentalist Protestantism. Do me a favor and check big_guy’s post history – it’s not just this thread that I’m railing against him for.
 
Sgt. Howie:
mercygate, I am simply a man (in RCIA, if you must know) who has grown very passionate about the Catholic faith, and who is *disgusted *by the arrogant, ignorant behavior of these Protestants who are here for the sole reason of converting Catholics to fundamentalist Protestantism. Do me a favor and check big_guy’s post history – it’s not just this thread that I’m railing against him for.
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Big Guy is not the point. We are Catholics and called to a higher standard.
 
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Genesis315:
Shame on you. :tsktsk: :mad: . You give the rest of us a bad name.
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Whatever. If you don’t have a problem with what big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are trying to do here, it’s YOU who are giving Catholics a bad name.
 
Tiger Lily:
Adstrinity,

How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Based on the Church’s testimony? If so…how do you know the Church’s testimony is true? How is your “knowledge” of the Church being infallible superior or less circular than a protestants “knowledge” of the scriptures being infallible?
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Apostolic succession and Tradition. The books in the canon (the Bible) were judged as inerrant in light of Tradition, what had always been taught everywhere for those 400 years or so leading up to the assembly of the canon (and of course is still taught). Early Christian writings from the first century on are consistent with Catholic Tradition.
Here are some good tracts: catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp
 
Sgt. Howie:
Whatever. If you don’t have a problem with what big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are trying to do here, it’s YOU who are giving Catholics a bad name.
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Nope I don’t. They are not going to convert anyone. I hope and pray that while they are here someone might make an impact on them and they might actually learn something. In the very least maybe they will go back and say that they don’t agree with Catholics but they aren’t pagan idol worshippers after all.
 
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Genesis315:
Nope I don’t. They are not going to convert anyone. I hope and pray that while they are here someone might make an impact on them and they might actually learn something. In the very least maybe they will go back and say that they don’t agree with Catholics but they aren’t pagan idol worshippers after all.
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That’s honorable, but that’s not how I’m feeling about it. Personally, I am just so sick and tired of all this Protestant-fueled anti-Catholicism, this unbridled ignorance, that we’re seeing today that I’m ready to fight back now – hard and fierce. Kindness isn’t working.

Straight-up, any Protestant – and it’s always a Protestant – who thinks they can walk up to me and attempt to convert me has something else coming. Like a trip to the dentist.
 
Sgt. Howie:
That’s honorable, but that’s not how I’m feeling about it. Personally, I am just so sick and tired of all this Protestant-fueled anti-Catholicism, this unbridled ignorance, that we’re seeing today that I’m ready to fight back now – hard and fierce. Kindness isn’t working.

Straight-up, any Protestant – and it’s always a Protestant – who thinks they can walk up to me and attempt to convert me has something else coming. Like a trip to the dentist.
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Hey, I’'m with you. I just think the fiercest way to do it is to shoot down their arguments. Cursing them out concedes defeat. Watching them stutter when they have no answer is by far a better result. I love this quote:

“Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.”(1 Peter 3:15-16)
 
Sgt. Howie:
Whatever. If you don’t have a problem with what big_guy144 and Tiger Lily are trying to do here, it’s YOU who are giving Catholics a bad name.
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Whew! The moderators have pulled Sgt. Howie’s plug – at least temporarily.

I apologize to big-guy and Tiger in the name of all that is Christian and Catholic for the offensive messages Sgt. Howie posted to this thread.
 
So let me get this straight Catholics can spread their apologetics to Protestants…but if protestants do it they’re being anti-catholic? Hmmm… Is someone going to answer my original question? And Sgt if Jesus is your Lord you need to turn the other cheek and that doesn’t mean having a protestant turn their head so you can punch them on that side.
 
That last post was in response to Sgt…besides the sentence about answering my original question. So don’t feel the need to respond to it you guys. 😉
 
Tiger Lily:
So let me get this straight Catholics can spread their apologetics to Protestants…but if protestants do it they’re being anti-catholic? Hmmm… Is someone going to answer my original question? And Sgt if Jesus is your Lord you need to turn the other cheek and that doesn’t mean having a protestant turn their head so you can punch them on that side.
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No, anti-Catholics come on here and condemn us for things we don’t even do (ie worship Mary among other things). They spread misconceptions and don’t even honestly try and discuss. Many protestants come on here and have awesome discussions with us.

As for your original question, see post 10, I tried to answer it anyway. What do you think?
 
I understand what you’re saying but it doesn’t provide any evidence of superiority. A protestant can argue in the same way. (Though I’m sure you would disagree with that.) 😉
 
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