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Augustine3
Guest
What evidence do we Catholics have to prove that the magisterium’s teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit and we are 100% certain they are without error?
Brother in Christ,
Brother in Christ,
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rom422
Guest
The Catholic belief in the Infallibility of the Church is based on the following texts of Holy Scripture:
(1) “He that heareth you, heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Luke 10: 16). These are strong words. Why would Christ say that if the Church could err on matters that pertain to our salvation?
(2) “Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world” (Matthew 28:19-20). If the Church could err, then Christ would not really be with us all days, and his promise to be with us all days would be in vain.
(3) “But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth” (John 16:13). So, we believe that the Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, who will teach us the truth about salvation.
(1) “He that heareth you, heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Luke 10: 16). These are strong words. Why would Christ say that if the Church could err on matters that pertain to our salvation?
(2) “Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world” (Matthew 28:19-20). If the Church could err, then Christ would not really be with us all days, and his promise to be with us all days would be in vain.
(3) “But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth” (John 16:13). So, we believe that the Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, who will teach us the truth about salvation.
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Augustine3
Guest
I can see the Protestants responding back with their own interpretation, so it will be our interpretation against theirs. How do we know ours is right?
Brother in Christ,
Brother in Christ,
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Nicea325
Guest
Not exactly! In order to question the guidance & protection of the Holy Spirit one must first rebuke Jesus:
“But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth” (John 16:13).
Did Jesus really mean the HS will only guide them for a specific period of time and cease to guide the church at one point in time and space?
Look at what else Jesus says:
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you** forever**— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will to you.I will not leave you orphans; I will come
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
The First Vatican Ecumenical Council.
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rom422
Guest
Protestants don’t believe in the infallibility of the Church because they believe only in the Bible. For them the Bible alone (“sola scriptura”) is the sole source of infallible truth and the only safe guide for a Christian. However, the Bible itself never said that it was the sole source of infallible truth. The Bible said that its teachings are true, that it is profitable to teach, but the idea that the Bible alone should be our sole guide and source of infallible truth is nowhere in the Bible. On the contrary, the bible itself clearly said that we must also listen to the Church: “He that heareth you, heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Luke 10: 16). That is why for Catholics, the rule of faith is not the Bible alone, but also the Church Magisterium (and the sacred traditions of the Church).
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
First, because it makes logical sense, second because it leads (at least ideally) and is the only way that could lead to a united Christianity, and thirdly because if (and this is a big if) there were multiple interpretations that were all consistent and made logical sense - or if there appeared to be - and if it mattered which one we believed (and in a case such as this it obviously does), then a good God would give us a way to tell which were correct. And, since we’re determining which interpretation of scripture is correct, that way would have to be either present in all interpretations (that is, everyone being mostly reasonable agreed on this part of their interpretations, which is not the case), or extra-biblical. We can then evaluate the extra biblical entities that could fulfill this rule and which claim too. This leads to the Catholic Church.
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Nicea325
Guest
Precisely why no one gets anywhere.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Because the Apostles taught it long before a word was ever written down. And the Apostles learned it from Christ. The Catholic Church wrote the NT during the first Christian century. She certainly knows what it means.
The Catholic Church is not based on the New Testament; rather, the NT is based on the teaching Church. Protestants have misinterpreted it thousands of times. This is apparent in the thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations that are based on the same 66-book Bible cut by Martin Luther, but no two of them agree about what the Bible means.
Jim Dandy
Former Protestant
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Nicea325
Guest
That is something I have told many Protestants. The Christian church did not come after the NT or form from the NT,but vice versa. Jesus did not write the NT with his own human hands and say:
Here my friends…go ahead and form and model the church from these writings.
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ExplosiveOxygen
Guest
I reject the right of any other being to tell me how to live. Especially when others support wars and violence, bigotry, and other forms of hate. :dts:
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puzzleannie
Guest
the promise of Christ himself that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church and that he sends his HOly Spirit as advocate, guide and protector.
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Miriam1947
Guest
Do you mean Christ?
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ExplosiveOxygen
Guest
The idea of Christ is love. Where Christ is said to have said to pay your taxes and obey Government has to be taken into consideration when it was written. Do you think Christians would have an easier or a harder time surviving if their Christ said “reject all earthly government for only god can rule and never obey authority”?
Christ doesn’t give any other rules except to love each other.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Christ taught love and much more. It took Him three years to teach His Apostles all that they needed to know and were to teach when He returned to heaven. The Apostles taught the Church, the Church wrote the New Testament and formed the Bible, and the Church teaches more than a billion of her members
Since Christ didn’t say what you suggest, any answer would be speculative.
Jim Dandy
Former Protestant, agnostic, atheist
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SteveVH
Guest
Even the One who made you, or did you bring yourself into existence? Do you reject a government who says you don’t have the right to kill or steal?
Please show me Church teaching that supports wars and violence and bigotry or other forms of hate? If you wish to judge the Church on the basis of the behavior of its worst members then are you really being fair? Why do you leave out the lives of the countless saints in the Church who did nothing but love. In any event, those of us who choose to be members of Christ’s Church do not do so because we are holy, but because we are sinners in need of God’s mercy. Apparently you have no such need. Congradulations!
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chuckfrmvalyfrg
Guest
Really ? Perhaps you missed the FIRST part of the commandment ( paraphrased ) , " to love your God , with all your mind , and all your heart and all your being " and Then to love your neighbor as yourself . Jesus gave primacy to God , why don’t you ?
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ExplosiveOxygen
Guest
I’m not sure what you think I suggest, or imply, or assume. If I suggest anything I will say it in a way you can quote it with no ambiguity.
Jesus did not believe in following secular authorities because if he really taught that then Christianity should have stopped existing as soon as Christians were persecuted.
Rendering the coins with Caesar’s image on them to Caesar is a reference to secular authority, Christ only said these things so that Christians could survive long enough to spread the word after his return to heaven. That is the point I am making. If you take all his teachings together you realize that only God has any authority.
I’m referring to secular governments.
I have not said whatever you are trying to reply to here.
Same as above…
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MarieAlice
Guest
Scripture does tell us that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16). Is there any other vehicle from which we can receive the infallible word of God?
The scripture you posted does not indicate the Roman Catholic Church. It was a command given to the seventy-two disciples sent ahead of Jesus to every place and town He was about to go.
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rom422
Guest
The Bible said that all of scripture is inspired and, therefore, infallible. It did not say that only the scripture (aka the Bible) is infallible. Is there any other vehicle from which we can receive the infallible word of God? Yes, - the Church! Just think. What you call the “Bible” consists of several books; namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, …, up to Revelation. The New Testament alone has already 27 books. But do you know that during the early years of Christianity there were many books written about Christ? There were hundreds of other gospels and epistles written besides the 27 books that we are familiar with. Now here is the question: Who determined which among the competing books then circulating in Palestine are inspired and which are not? Who decided which books are infallible and, therefore, belong to the collection that we call “the Bible”? You can’t say that it is in the bible because none of the so-called books of the Bible gave us a list of inspired books. The gospels did not give us a list. Neither did St. Paul’s epistles. The one single institution that made that determination was the Church. Without the Church, we would not know which books are truly inspired and which are not. Now, if the Church itself is not infallible, then how can we rely on the books that it determined to be infallible? So, you see, even the reliability of the whole bible hangs on the infallibility of the Church, because it is the Church that determined which books are to be considered as parts of sacred scripture. Therefore, the Church is another source of infallible word.
You are right. Christ’s words were directly addressed to the 72 disciples. But indirectly they also apply to whomever He sends to do His work. For example, he said the same to His apostles (See Matthew, Chapter 10). Now, do you think the commission to preach the gospel was given only to the apostles? No, they apply also to their successors, or those whom they ordain to the ministry. How could you assume that authority is only given to a select few? Didn’t He will all men to be saved? Didn’t He want the Church to continue after His death? Didn’t He promise His apostles that He would be with them till the end of time? When you read the gospels, it is clear that authority is being given by Christ to His Church, as He received the same from the Father, and we have the obligation to receive the Church’s teachings: “He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me” (Mt. 10:40).
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