Infallible Teachings

[PRmerger]

Christ doesn’t give any other rules except to love each other.

Well, yes and no.

If you consider: If you divorce and re-marry, you commit adultery to be “about love” (I do!), then yes.

If you consider: Go out and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be “about love” (I do!), then yes.

If you consider: Obey your leaders to be “about love” (I do!) then yes.



Yet it is also essentially false to say that “Christ doesn’t give any other rules except to love each other.” Clearly, he gave us lots of other rules.

It’s like saying, “My parents only had one rule: Love your neighbor!” but then we had to
-be home by 11pm
-clean our bathroom every Friday
-tithe to the church from our part time paycheck
-wear seatbelts…

lots of rules that don’t essentially have anything to do with loving your neighbor.

 

[ExplosiveOxygen]

Well, yes and no.

If you consider: If you divorce and re-marry, you commit adultery to be “about love” (I do!), then yes.

If you consider: Go out and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be “about love” (I do!), then yes.

If you consider: Obey your leaders to be “about love” (I do!) then yes.

If you look closely at the teachings you will realize only God is authority, all humans are equal on those terms.

Yet it is also essentially false to say that “Christ doesn’t give any other rules except to love each other.” Clearly, he gave us lots of other rules.

It’s like saying, “My parents only had one rule: Love your neighbor!” but then we had to
-be home by 11pm
-clean our bathroom every Friday
-tithe to the church from our part time paycheck
-wear seatbelts…

lots of rules that don’t essentially have anything to do with loving your neighbor.

Involuntary tithe and tax are nonsense.

 

[rom422]

DaddyGirl,

There is no need to wrestle with the text of Holy Scripture. The meaning is clear: He who listens to you (meaning the Church), listens to me (Christ); he who despises you (the Church), despises me (Christ). And he who depises me (Christ), despises Him (the Father) who sent me.

Now your turn. Show me how you got to your interpretation.

 

[PRmerger]

If you look closely at the teachings you will realize only God is authority, all humans are equal on those terms.

This is very Catholic of you to say, EO!

Now, I hope you’re also not extrapolating from “only God is authority” to mean this: there is no such thing as human authority.

For if that is your position, that is clearly untenable.

Involuntary tithe and tax are nonsense.

Okay.

 

[ExplosiveOxygen]

This is very Catholic of you to say, EO!
Now, I hope you’re also not extrapolating from “only God is authority” to mean this: there is no such thing as human authority.
For if that is your position, that is clearly untenable.
Okay.

That is indeed my statement. :hey_bud:

 

[PRmerger]

That is indeed my statement. :hey_bud:

There’s no such thing as human authority? Really? That’s your statement?

Are you a parent?

(No need to answer, as it is a personal question.)

Do you stop at red lights?

Do you wait in line at Disney World?

Do you pay for your airline ticket?

Or do you just go around claiming, “There is no such thing as authority so I’m going to …”
-let my kids do as they wish
-stop whenver I feel like stopping on the road
-walk up to the front of the line at Dumbo and just walk onto the ride
-demand that I be allowed on the plane because you have no authority to make me pay for it!

 

[ExplosiveOxygen]

There’s no such thing as human authority? Really? That’s your statement?

Are you a parent?

(No need to answer, as it is a personal question.)

It is also irrelevant.

Do you stop at red lights?

There are crossings with no lights at them that work fine, in heavy traffic areas, in places that don’t have stoplights everywhere, as well as in experimental designs just like that in europe

Do you wait in line at Disney World?

A line is great example of non-hierchy and non authority, are you aware of that?

Do you pay for your airline ticket?

This is purchasing something you need, there is no authority involved here, you are not forced into buying a ticket.

Or do you just go around claiming, “There is no such thing as authority so I’m going to …”
-let my kids do as they wish

Yes, unless there is a chance of death or permanent bodily damage, they can do as they wish.

-stop whenver I feel like stopping on the road

Yes.

-walk up to the front of the line

answered above

at Dumbo and just walk onto the ride

Are you implying an exchange of goods or services for payment requires an authority?

-demand that I be allowed on the plane because you have no authority to make me pay for it!

Please learn some economics. I mean this with honesty and urgency.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I am equally unconvinced with both sola scriptura and with the Church’s infallibility.

Starting with sola scriptura just to get that out of the way. Why does the Bible contain so much nonsense, so many inaccuracies and contradictions, moral failings, fail to address numerous subjects that God must have known would become issues, etc.?

I think the Catholic Church’s position makes sense because if Jesus truly did commission the Church, then his teachings can be refined, elaborated, contextualized, etc. by the Church officials.

But if you believe sola scriptura, then why is the Bible so flawed?

Moving on to the Church. The Church has the problem of admitting the Bible is flawed, while looking to the Bible for “proof” that the Church itself is without flaw. Isn’t that a problem?

Second, how can we trust that the Catholic Church is truly the Church that Jesus commissioned? (Assuming he did commission one in the sense that the Catholic Church believes.)

The Catholic Church seems to be saying:

1. Jesus granted his apostles this authority.
2. ???
3. Therefore, we are that authority.

I don’t see how we’re getting from point 1 to point 3.

 

[PRmerger]

It is also irrelevant.

There are crossings with no lights at them that work fine, in heavy traffic areas, in places that don’t have stoplights everywhere, as well as in experimental designs just like that in europe.

Ah. I see that I am talking with someone who has no ability to think in the abstract.

You understand things only in the literal sense then?

 

[PRmerger]

It is also irrelevant.

There are crossings with no lights at them that work fine, in heavy traffic areas, in places that don’t have stoplights everywhere, as well as in experimental designs just like that in europe

A line is great example of non-hierchy and non authority, are you aware of that?
This is purchasing something you need, there is no authority involved here, you are not forced into buying a ticket.

Yes, unless there is a chance of death or permanent bodily damage, they can do as they wish.
Yes.
answered above
Are you implying an exchange of goods or services for payment requires an authority?

Please learn some economics. I mean this with honesty and urgency.

Alas, as you cannot understand how to apply questions that are literal to the abstract, I regret that our conversation is over, even as it’s only just begun. :sad_yes:

But I think it has been made quite clear by my questions (to anyone who can understand analogies) that the paradigm: “there is no human authority” is an untenable one.

Anyone who is a parent sees this.
Anyone who follows traffic rules sees this.
Anyone who follows the basic courtesies of modern behavior sees this.

 

[PRmerger]

Moving on to the Church. The Church has the problem of admitting the Bible is flawed, while looking to the Bible for “proof” that the Church itself is without flaw.

I think you are mistaken, VLM. The Church has never claimed that she is “without flaw”.

From our Catechism: “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” CCC 825

 

[ExplosiveOxygen]

Ah. I see that I am talking with someone who has no ability to think in the abstract.

You understand things only in the literal sense then?

I am not sure why you choose to use ad hominem instead of clarifying your position. This is most unfortunate.

Alas, as you cannot understand how to apply questions that are literal to the abstract, I regret that our conversation is over, even as it’s only just begun. :sad_yes:

But I think it has been made quite clear by my questions (to anyone who can understand analogies) that the paradigm: “there is no human authority” is an untenable one.

No it has not been made clear, you simply assume there is only one answer to your questions and then you attack the person you are discussing with instead of expanding on your points.
It seems you only want to reaffirm your beliefs.

Anyone who is a parent sees this.
Anyone who follows traffic rules sees this.
Anyone who follows the basic courtesies of modern behavior sees this.

For behavior you gave an example of a line-up, which does not require any authority to form.
You ignored both my statements about parenting and about traffic lights, but you can just pretend that your views are undeniable. :compcoff:

 

[Frank_J]

MEDIATOR DEI
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE SACRED LITURGY

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I think you are mistaken, VLM. The Church has never claimed that she is “without flaw”.

From our Catechism: “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” CCC 825

Thank you!

Now I have to go back and read everything on the Church’s fallibility/infallibility. I’ll return in six months to discuss the matter further… lol.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you!

Now I have to go back and read everything on the Church’s fallibility/infallibility. I’ll return in six months to discuss the matter further… lol.

Or you can continue to discuss and learn here.

 

[rom422]

I am equally unconvinced with both sola scriptura and with the Church’s infallibility.

Starting with sola scriptura just to get that out of the way. Why does the Bible contain so much nonsense, so many inaccuracies and contradictions, moral failings, fail to address numerous subjects that God must have known would become issues, etc.?

I think the Catholic Church’s position makes sense because if Jesus truly did commission the Church, then his teachings can be refined, elaborated, contextualized, etc. by the Church officials.

But if you believe sola scriptura, then why is the Bible so flawed?

Moving on to the Church. The Church has the problem of admitting the Bible is flawed, while looking to the Bible for “proof” that the Church itself is without flaw. Isn’t that a problem?

Second, how can we trust that the Catholic Church is truly the Church that Jesus commissioned? (Assuming he did commission one in the sense that the Catholic Church believes.)

The Catholic Church seems to be saying:

1. Jesus granted his apostles this authority.
2. ???
3. Therefore, we are that authority.

I don’t see how we’re getting from point 1 to point 3.

The Bible is too flawed? I don’t think so. This post is too flawed that it would take a long post to correct. So, I’ll just answer the last question by writing out the Church’s full argument as follows:

1. Jesus granted his apostles this infallible teaching authority.
2. The apostles passed this authority to their successors, and the successors did likewise, continuing this apostolic succession to the present day, where we now stand as the present successors.
3. Therefore, we now have that infallible teaching authority.

The Catholic Church claims that it is the Church founded by Christ precisely because it has full apostolic succession. The Protestants cannot legitimately make this claim. The Orthodox have apostolic succession, but fails to be in full communion with the Catholic Church because it has broken ties with the Roman Pontiff, who is the rightful successor of St. Peter.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The Bible is too flawed?

You think the Bible is inerrant? Do you really???

The Catholic Church claims that it is the Church founded by Christ precisely because it has full apostolic succession. The Protestants cannot legitimately make this claim. The Orthodox have apostolic succession, but fails to be in full communion with the Catholic Church because it has broken ties with the Roman Pontiff, who is the rightful successor of St. Peter.

Can we prove apostolic succession? If so, how?

 

[Frank_J]

The Catholic Church make claims Protestants make claims just like that too.

Orthodox Church have apostolic succession and the Church start in the east not in the west. Only until RCand PC return will there be one…

 

[PRmerger]

You think the Bible is inerrant? Do you really???

Scripture is inerrant. However, Scripture is about truth, not about facts. So even when Scripture states that the sun rises and sets (Malachi 1:11), it is not proclaiming a fact of cosmic motion, but rather proclaiming a truth about eternity.

Can we prove apostolic succession? If so, how?

Proof of Apostolic Succession: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Each of those popes and their bishops was ordained by another pope or bishop who was ordained by another pope or bishop, who was ordained…by the apostles, who were ordained by Christ.

Only the Orthodox Church can claim with the CC that their leaders today can trace a direct line of succession to Jesus and the apostles.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

I have not said whatever you are trying to reply to here.