Infallible Teachings

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So you didn’t say that ALL Christ told us to do was to love each other ?
Christ doesn’t give any other rules except to love each other.
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Here is what I said, I’m not going to play did not not not games with you.
And you are saying that the part about loving God with all our mind and all our heart and all our being doesn’t precede the part about loving our neighbor as ourself ? Why do you seem to be skipping the commandment to love God and only deal with people ? Christ put loving God before loving each other . Which do you think has primacy ?
God is perfect, there are no needs coming from God.
Where did Christ actually say to ignore civil authority ? Christ had NO problem with civil authority that was prudent , temperate and just . Where is it recorded that Christ questioned Pilate’s authority ?
Christ had a problem with money handling in the temple, if he had no problem with people claiming rules then he would not have a problem with that, they did nothing illegal. Christ said that only God is king, no other. All people are equal and deserve love.
Natural law applies to individuals and governments . Just as an individual has a right to defend himself from unwarranted attacks so does a sovereign nation state . For a sovereign nation state this right does include war .
I know I’m not confused .
Defending yourself, and attacking others are not the same thing.
No one has the right to attack others.
 
Here is what I said, I’m not going to play did not not not games with you.
How is what I attributed to you SUBSTANTIVELY DIFFERENT from what you ACTUALLY POSTED ? Why isn’t it you who is playing games ?
God is perfect, there are no needs coming from God.
Where did I use the word "need " in relation to God or anything that implies "need " ? Perhaps you are projecting ?

For the Third Time now, I will ask you since you haven’t answered me previously : In relation to the " Golden Rule " , why have you not addressed the first part , the part where Christ tells us to love the Lord our God with all our mind and all our heart and all our being?
Is this NOT BEFORE he tells us to love our neighbor as ourself ?
Which of the two parts of the " Golden Rule " do you think has primacy ?

God doesn’t need , but He can want/demand ( us to behave in a proscribed manner ) .
Christ had a problem with money handling in the temple, if he had no problem with people claiming rules then he would not have a problem with that, they did nothing illegal. Christ said that only God is king, no other. All people are equal and deserve love.
In relation to the part of my post this addresses it seems to be a non sequitor. don’t see how this pertains to my post .
Defending yourself, and attacking others are not the same thing.
No one has the right to attack others.
Natural Law also says we have a right and obligation to use force to defend " others " , when necessary .
In Just War you will probably have to attack your enemy , that does not mean the war is unjust . Just War Theory understands that you must have a reasonable expectation of victory . How can you have a reasonable expectation of victory if the enemy is not engaged ? If you continually allow your opponent to be the aggressor , he will dictate the time and place of battle which will result in your own troops being put at a disadvantage and incurring unnecessary casualties . How is that not an odd way to go about actually winning the war ?
 
Scripture is inerrant. However, Scripture is about truth, not about facts. So even when Scripture states that the sun rises and sets (Malachi 1:11), it is not proclaiming a fact of cosmic motion, but rather proclaiming a truth about eternity.

Proof of Apostolic Succession: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Each of those popes and their bishops was ordained by another pope or bishop who was ordained by another pope or bishop, who was ordained…by the apostles, who were ordained by Christ.

Only the Orthodox Church can claim with the CC that their leaders today can trace a direct line of succession to Jesus and the apostles.
Thanks for answering VLM for me.

By the way, I also visited your 3 Minute Apologetics - very impressive website! And your random things - Now I know to hide my fingernails if by chance we meet.
 
I trust you do understand that it took 400 years of debate and negotiation and arguing over which books to include and which to leave out? That letters/books thought to be written by certain people at that time long ago are now proved not to be? That there were problems with translations and copying? That many words, quotes, stories were changed or added to versions of the books hundreds of years later?

Not saying it’s not “true”…but saying that human error is abound.

The councils that “decided upon” the books were made up of bishops who sat in rooms and debated and voted over and over for centuries.
Bishops are human, too, right? And therefore, prone to human error?
Then basically what you are saying is Jesus simply pulled everyone’s leg about sending the Holy Spirit? So the very Bible we have is truly not infallible and our entire salvation is questionable?
 
It sounds to me like he is saying:
“People who hear you talk will be hearing me talk, too, because you will be repeating…and there will be people out there who will not like you for what you say…and if they don’t like you, then they don’t like me or God.”
I don’t think that is what it says. The disciples are not tape recorders who will talk simply by repeating words of Christ that they remember. The disciples were supposed to proclaim the kingdom, and to teach lessons they learned from the Master. Sure, they would also quote Christ, but their function was to carry on the work of the Lord, one of which is to teach. I interpret Christ’s words as imparting teaching authority to the disciples, and He said that those who wouldn’t listen to his teachings (by despising or rejecting them, which is stronger than merely “not liking” them) would be guilty of not listening to Our Lord Himself.
If he is talking to a person, how do you interpret that (“you”) to mean an entire church instead?
When Christ made his sermon on the mount, and said “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven,… etc.” was that sermon only for the listeners in the crowd, or was it also for the entire Church? He said it directly to the multitude, yes, but indirectly they were for all of us, too, isn’t it? I think the crowd gathered around Him may be taken to represent us. In the same way I think that the “You” in the passage quoted refers directly to the disciples and the apostles, but indirectly it applies also to their successors whom they send to continue the work.
And how, then, after that…do you interpret that to mean the church has infallible teachings?
Why, isn’t Christ infallible? If listening to the apostles and disciples (and to the Church Magisterium) is listening to Christ Himself, then are we not listening to infallible teachings?
 
I trust you do understand that it took 400 years of debate and negotiation and arguing over which books to include and which to leave out? That letters/books thought to be written by certain people at that time long ago are now proved not to be? That there were problems with translations and copying? That many words, quotes, stories were changed or added to versions of the books hundreds of years later?

Not saying it’s not “true”…but saying that human error is abound.

The councils that “decided upon” the books were made up of bishops who sat in rooms and debated and voted over and over for centuries.
Bishops are human, too, right? And therefore, prone to human error?
The Bishops were human, no denying that. But were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John not also human? Was St. Paul not human? Was St. Peter not human? If the Holy Spirit could protect the sacred writers from error, and give them the gift of infallibility, why could He not do the same to the Bishops in union with the Pope?

You said it took many years of debate to determine which books are infallible. Agreed. But it also took years to write the whole Bible, isn’t it? Yes, the books of the Bible underwent a series of editing and copying, and errors could have crept in. But that is exactly why we needed the Church. The Church is the Teacher given by Christ the authority to decide which books and which edition will be taken as part of the Canon. Indeed, it was the Catholic Church that made that determination, and whether they like it or not, the whole Christian world owes the Bible “as we know it” to the Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church, none of the Christian Reformers would know what the books of the Bible were or what they contained The Bible they held in their hands was from the Catholic Church. Do you know why? Because the originals are missing. We do not have the original texts anymore. Some of the books of the Bible were destroyed during the Roman persecution. Some were destroyed naturally because of the poor paper quality. Some were simply lost. What we have, and what the Reformers had, were copies of the original texts. These copies might be in their original languages- for example, Hebrew and Greek. And many of them were also in Latin, from a translation by St. Jerome. But where did all these copies come from? The Catholic Church! Because the bibles were copied painstakingly by the monks and religious of the Catholic Church. In spite of some errors in copying, the whole world owe the Bible to their devotion, for they did all this work before the invention of the printing press in 1450 A.D.

And that is another point. For centuries until the invention of the printing press, Christians lived and learned their religion from the Catholic Church. Not many people had copies of the Bible. Only the rich and the nobles could afford them. You would normally find a copy in a monastery or convent. But they were practically absent in the homes of most people. If we rely only on sola scriptura, if we say that only the Bible is infallible, then that means that for centuries, not just for years or decades, the People of God lived without an infallible guide. But that is not so. Christ did not write a bible. He founded a Church, an infallible Church, to teach all men. It was the Church that was entrusted the task of evangelizing all nations.
 
Nobody!
But this is what I assume you believe, non?
Well, yeah. But I also believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were infallible.

My question to you is: do you believe Jesus was perfect? If so, why? If not, then who was he?
 
The more I read this thread, the more I’m inclined to think that both the Church and the protestants are wrong. I’m in trouble here. :doh2:
 
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The more I read this thread, the more I’m inclined to think that both the Church and the protestants are wrong. I’m in trouble here. :doh2:
Why?

(Not why are you in trouble. 🙂 Why do you think that the Church is wrong?)
 
What evidence do we Catholics have to prove that the magisterium’s teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit and we are 100% certain they are without error?

Brother in Christ,
Evidence:

Miracles
Martyrs
Fulfillment of Scriptural Prophecy
and the Propagation of the Church
…and that none of these so-called “infallible” teachings has ever been contradicted nor has anything contrary ever been taught under the guise of infallibility.

none of which the protestants or anyone else (other religions) can claim.

We can be certain that they are 100% without error by the supernatural virtue of faith.

– Nicole
 
What evidence do we Catholics have to prove that the magisterium’s teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit and we are 100% certain they are without error?,
Purely faith. There is no evidence which is not *also *based on faith.
 
Purely faith. There is no evidence which is not *also *based on faith.
And reason, too, draws us to this conclusion.

Logic dictates that if there is a God, and He was Incarnated, and He founded a Church (all which can be proven), then it stands to reason that a Church founded by the Godhead, when it pronounces on theological matters, would not proclaim things in error.
 
What evidence do we Catholics have to prove that the magisterium’s teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit and we are 100% certain they are without error?

Brother in Christ,
The Church’s teachings are not final because they are infallible…instead they are infallible because they are final. Think of it this way - when the Church asserts a truth it is the highest authority on earth regarding the topic at hand. Since there is no higher authority we must trust that it is asserting the truth under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit as discussed in the Bible. If you question that then you also question that the Bible itself contains both truth and wisdom…that is a slippery slope
 
And reason, too, draws us to this conclusion.

Logic dictates that if there is a God, and He was Incarnated, and He founded a Church (all which can be proven), then it stands to reason that a Church founded by the Godhead, when it pronounces on theological matters, would not proclaim things in error.
You were doing great until the “all which can be proven” part! All of which is based on faith is much more reasonable.
 
You were doing great until the “all which can be proven” part! All of which is based on faith is much more reasonable.
You don’t think that the existence of God can be proven?

Our greatest Catholic thinkers tackled that centuries ago! See Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, etc etc etc.

Yes, the existence of God can be proven, using logic and reason alone.

Now, the qualities of God–such as that he is love, or that he is a trinity, are revealed truths that we know by faith and reason.

But God’s existence et al? Yes, reason alone works.
 
Why?

(Not why are you in trouble. 🙂 Why do you think that the Church is wrong?)
I can’t understand the Church’s explanation! Can you rephrase it for me? This topic (Galileo) comes up often, so I would really like to be informed.

If geocentrism wasn’t doctrine, why would the Church care what Galileo taught about it? Why would they care enough to lock him up for it?

And if it was doctrine, then the Church was wrong about doctrine? :confused:
 
I can’t understand the Church’s explanation! Can you rephrase it for me? This topic (Galileo) comes up often, so I would really like to be informed.

If geocentrism wasn’t doctrine, why would the Church care what Galileo taught about it? Why would they care enough to lock him up for it?

And if it was doctrine, then the Church was wrong about doctrine? :confused:
There are a whole host of threads on the Galileo issue. I suggest you do a search.

Suffice it to say that the Church cannot form a dogma on a scientific theory.
 
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