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ESMDHokie77
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To further the discussion, we really need specifics, eve.
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Tantum_ergo
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No, I’m saying that YOU are making up strawmen.
You’re the one stating that the Pope erred because he falsely taught torture wasn’t evil, aren’t you?
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Tantum_ergo
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Eve could read about torture in the Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent) under Inquisition. . .if she wanted to.
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secondeve
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On the contary, such a Papal Bull does exist. It’s called Ad Extirpanda, issued in 1252. It explicitly authorises the use of torture against heretics.
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PJM
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LOVE THIS QUESTION!
Matt.16: 19 " I [JESUS] will give [now HAVE given to you and My CC] you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [ALL of them… ALL access to heaven MUST come throgh Christ AND His CC] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
John.20: 19 to 22 " On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [Pentecost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. ***As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ***[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
These words from Christ did TWO amazing things: 1. These are the WORDS of Institution of Christ CC. 2. NOTE that Jesus PASSES on to the Apostles and successors [required in an absolute sense from the commanded of **Matt. 28:19] , being SENT IN THE VERY POWER AND AUTHORITY that the Father sent Jesus Himself!
Affirmation and confirmation of the TRUTH of the CC on ALL Teaching on Fath beliefs AND Morals is:
**John.14:16 to 17 **“And I [JESUS] will [HAVE NOW] pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,[The Holy Spirit] ***to be with you for ever, *** even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you”.
AND
John.17: 15 to 19 " " I [JESUS] do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. **As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. ** And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth"
The catholic Church ALONE has BOTH the Holy Spirt and Jesus HIMSELF IN PERSON to warranty her Teachings as TRUE. THAT IS WHY THEY MUST ABSOLUELY BE ACCEPTED:thumbsup:
God Bless you,
Pat
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ESMDHokie77
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on the wikipedia article discussion page for this bull, there is a comment that the english translation does not contain the word “torture”, more on this later…
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secondeve
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, being SENT IN THE VERY POWER AND AUTHORITY that the Father sent Jesus Himself!
Affirmation and confirmation of the TRUTH of the CC on ALL Teaching on Fath beliefs AND Morals is:
**John.14:16 to 17 **“And I [JESUS] will [HAVE NOW] pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,[The Holy Spirit] ***to be with you for ever, *** even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you”.
AND
John.17: 15 to 19 " " I [JESUS] do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. **As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. ** And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth"
The catholic Church ALONE has BOTH the Holy Spirt and Jesus HIMSELF IN PERSON to warranty her Teachings as TRUE. THAT IS WHY THEY MUST ABSOLUELY BE ACCEPTED:thumbsup:
God Bless you,
Pat
You are completely missing the point, unless you are an ultramontanist also…
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Tantum_ergo
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AND? Don’t just leave us hanging. Authorizing the use of torture in what situation? Is this ‘use’ permitted to ALL Catholics at any time, anywhere? You need to give CONTEXT.
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michelleds
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sorry, this one is going to get you dinged. because someone else wrote this up so beautifully, I give you : zippycatholic.blogspot.com/2009/05/tale-of-two-documents-or-fallacy.html
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Tantum_ergo
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Funny, none of us here is an ultramontanist. I do find it annoying to have people throw names and labels onto others; argumentatively speaking it’s one of the more annoying logically fallacies people engage in.
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Tantum_ergo
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Nicely done, Michelle!!:clapping::clapping::clapping:
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gavanhe
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Aside from the fact that Our Lord has imbued us all with an innate sense of right and wrong, I find it somewhat surprising that a person will struggle to discern right from wrong especially since as Catholics we have the bible, catechism and the magesterium not to mention our catholic upbringing - family, education - to help us form our consciences to be able to discern these issues.
In other words, we do already have the ability and certainty without needing the iteration of a multitude of “Solemn, Infallible Teaching” to know right and wrong.
Gerry
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secondeve
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You people are unbelievable. You actually believe you’ve scored a point.
Firstly, few historians would agree with “Zippy Catholic’s” interpretation of Ad Extirpanda. The word “force” refers to torture. This is certain. The Church’s acceptance of torture to extract information from heretics is well-known to historians… Also, he scores an own goal by quoting the Catechism which states,
“In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture.”
To claim that it is a different kind of document and therefore the Church is somehow released from responsibility for it (if that is indeed what is being claimed) or that the Pope did not intend to teach through it, is disgraceful. When one considers the various inquisitions the blood runs cold.
Secondly, this is besides the point. This thread is not specifically about torture, but asks the simple question, “In view of the fact that there are few, if any, infallible statements regarding morality, what in this matter can we be certain of?” To claim, as some have done, that there is no problem to be addressed is naïve in the extreme. The fact that Priests are giving the laity advice based upon different ideas is a matter for serious concern. Two threads I have been active on very recently concerned oral sex and anal sex. These are practices that many people mention in confession. The widely differing attitudes expressed there suggests that Catholic morality is all at sea, which is what evoked my question, to which I have not yet had a serious response.
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secondeve
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So as far as you are concerned the vast literature of moral theology, much of it written as a guide to Priests in the confessional (ie to teach the laity about right and wrong) is all a waste of time, as we just need to consult our consciences???
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secondeve
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“Logically fallacies”??? lol. I think you mean “logical fallacies”. Do you actually know what a logical fallacy is? Well, this isn’t one.
I am not “throwing names”. When I suggest that a person is an ultramontanist it is because they are claiming or implying that Catholics must accept all current Papal teaching as certain. So the Pope becomes infallible every time he opens his mouth, which is not the teaching of the Church, nor is it historically credible.
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secondeve
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I beg to differ. You just ignored it.
"Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott, is the place to start. Also, you ought to get The Sources of Catholic Dogma, by Henry Denzinger. Both are available at Amazon.com."
Your statement that there are few if any infallible teachings on morality is simply inaccurate.
I didn’t ignore anything. No-one has given me the answer; they all skip around it.
If you believe there are lots of infallible statements about morality, do what no-one else has been able to do: LIST THEM. But please don’t come back with claims that everything in official teaching is certain, cos that’s just silly.
"Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott, is the place to start. Also, you ought to get The Sources of Catholic Dogma, by Henry Denzinger. Both are available at Amazon.com."
Your statement that there are few if any infallible teachings on morality is simply inaccurate.
I didn’t ignore anything. No-one has given me the answer; they all skip around it.
If you believe there are lots of infallible statements about morality, do what no-one else has been able to do: LIST THEM. But please don’t come back with claims that everything in official teaching is certain, cos that’s just silly.
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michelleds
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Question: How can you know for certain what is right and wrong?
Answer: Catechism, Scripture, Tradition and what’s written on your heart.
Answer 2: Matthew 27:37-38 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
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secondeve
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Don’t be silly. How can everything in the Bible be literally true?? How can everything in the Catechism be certain? The Catechism is not an infallible document. Many things are not in the Catechism anyway. Is anal sex a sin or not? A debate on another thread shows how much difference of opinion there is.
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secondeve
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I never claimed “everytyhing in official teaching” is infallible. You are putting words in my mouth. I decline to “list” every moral teaching that is infallible. It is too long. Instead I gave you two sources that list them. Do your own homework.
I didn’t say you did! I merely asked you not to do what others on this thread have done.
You “decline to list” every infallible moral teaching because you don’ t know any! I have Ott’s book, and so far I have not found one infallible moral teaching…you obviously haven’t read your own sources!!
I didn’t say you did! I merely asked you not to do what others on this thread have done.
You “decline to list” every infallible moral teaching because you don’ t know any! I have Ott’s book, and so far I have not found one infallible moral teaching…you obviously haven’t read your own sources!!
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Tantum_ergo
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You ‘suggested’ it? Right. . .
Nowhere did I ever state or imply that the Pope was ‘infallible every time he opens his mouth’. Why do you keep on trying to imply or insinuate that I did?
You know, in my life that exists outside these forums, I have responsibilities, and thus, in attending to them, I let the ‘logically’ instead of logical slide instead of immediately correcting it. However, rather than make jeering remarks at posters who have or will make the same type of errors, I try to act like a reasonable adult and address the actual topic at hand. I’ve found this type of approach is far more helpful to all concerned and recommend it highly.
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