Infant baptism and orginal sin

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The Iambic Pen:
All of that being said, it is not an easy thing to consider the possibility that the faith I have been raised in may in fact be flawed. Catholics have always been “the others.” They may be nice and all, and many of them are certainly Christians, but most of them are either superstitious and ignorant or noncommittal “Christmas and Easter” types. As I begin to see that this is not the case, I come to the slightly uncomfortable conclusion that maybe I’m on the wrong side of the fence. As someone who was raised as a Protestant, who attended church every single Sunday (except for very rare exceptions), who was actively involved in Protestant groups growing up, who continued in such groups in college, and whose father was a Protestant minister, I approach this juncture with a bit of hesitation and anxiety.

So, all of this being said, I ask for your prayers. If Catholicism is indeed the truth, then obviously I desire to embrace it.
IB,
Words can hardly express how much I have been enjoying reading your posts. God’s grace is obviously overflowing in your heart and touching your soul profoundly.

In another thread, I mentioned the book “Surprised by Truth” and I was delighted to hear that you ordered the book. Your comments here made me want to give you a little sneak preview taken from the Forward to the book. It was written by Scott Hahn, a former Protestant pastor and well-known Catholic convert and author. I suspect his words may comfort you as you begin to contemplate the idea that you just *might *have been on the “wrong side of the fence” all these years.

Scott wrote:
"I’ve often thought of my own journey to Rome as a mystery story, a horror story, and a love story. Sometimes being surprised by truth is intially being horrified by truth. The Catholic Church has the truth? The fullness of the truth? Confronting this fact is a gut-wrenching agony for stanch, Bible-based Evangelical Protestants who’ve thought and taught, largely because of misunderstandings and prejudice, that Catholics are not even Christians… Conversion to Catholicism means hardship, sacrifice, and often loneliness. It means following Jesus all the way to the Cross.

And for what? Once someone snidely remarked to Steve Wood that he became Catholic “for the money.”

“No, not for the money,” Steve replied. “But I did do it for the riches.”

We converts have been made so rich. We have been given wealth beyond our wildest dreams! What words can express the sense of a child who, after passing through a series of ophanages and foster homes, finds himself standing in the doorway of an unfamiliar mansion staring into the loving faces of long-forgotten family members? He is reintroduced to his Father, Almighty God, and to Mary, his mother and queen, who is standing, arms outstretched in welcome, next to his elder brother, King Jesus – in the midst of that glorious company of angelic and saintly siblings who stretch forth from heaven to earth and under the earth. Can you imagine a holier homecoming or a more royal reunion? Few joys surpass the ones related here by these former theological step-children who have finally come home.

The anguish endured is not worth comparing to the riches gained: the Holy Eucharist, the pope, the magisterium, the sacraments, Mary, the saints – the splendor of Christ mirrored in his Church. “Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.” (Phil. 3:8)

Then the horror turns to surprise, and surprise turns to delight, and bliss, and fire, and a desire to share all this with others. Loneliness fades away as one discovers more and more people who have also been surprised by truth."

Someone else also mentioned David Currie’s book “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.” Currie was a former Baptist minister and like Scott Hahn, he describes his mixed feelings on becoming Catholic in the following excerpt from his book:

“Yet I had to make this change to Catholicism anyway. Truth was calling me. When I had finished writing my letter of resignation to our Baptist church, I sat down in our living room and wept like a child. After proofreading the letter, Colleen sat on my lap and mixed her tears with mine. That night I told good friends of our decision to become Catholic and that I was not happy about it. I found it easy to relate my feelings to those of C.S. Lewis when, at his conversion to Christianity, he said he was the unhappiest Christian in all of England. Once I had become convinced that the Catholic Church really was Christ’s Church, however, at no point did I doubt that I would join her. If I had discovered a pearl of great price, I knew I would sell all I had to buy it. (Mt. 13:44-46)”

Bottom line, it may be uncomfortable but hang in there, as Scott and David wrote, it’s more than worth the pain to seek the Truth, wherever it may be found.
In His love,
Rhonda
 
The Iambic Pen:
Well, this results from my misuse of the word “Mass.” I was saying “go to Mass,” in the same way I might say, “go to church.” My lack of knowledge does tend to show itself now and then… 🙂
Live and learn, IB. That’s what we’re here for. 😉 FYI, baptisms are generally performed outside of Mass. In our parish, for example, they are done on Sunday afternoons after the last morning Mass. The main exceptions are adult baptisms which generally take place during the Easter Vigil Mass ( on the Saturday evening before Easter.) The Easter Vigil is the highest, holiest day of the Church calendar and new members of the Church are traditionally baptized and/or received into the Church on that night (usually after having gone through a lengthy period of instruction in the faith known as RCIA. = Rite of Christian Initiation).

As for your story, I believe there may be some truth to it since it most definitely **is **true that Catholics believe baptism is extremely important. And parents would be rightly concerned to make sure their children were baptized as soon as possible.
The reason the infant baptism issue is such an important one to me is because of its importance in a human being’s eternal state. According to my understanding, ultimately all people will either be in Heaven or Hell (purgatory being a temporary state for those already going to Heaven). So, obviously infants must end up in either Heaven or Hell eventually. While I don’t necessarily believe they get an immediate free pass to Heaven, I also doubt that they are condemned to Hell. Where they end up is a mystery to me, but I trust God, who is merciful and just. So, the question ultimately is not, “Is God doing the right thing in regard to these infants?” because obviously He is. The question is what is the Church’s official stand on the issue.
As I said, parents would be rightly concerned since the “official” Church stand on the issue is that we don’t know!! Paragraph 1261 of the Catechism states:

"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them, “allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism”

Notice it says we “can only entrust them to the mercy of God” and that we are allowed to “hope that there is a way of salvation” for them. At the same time it stresses the urgency of making sure that children are baptized in a timely manner.

The good news is Catholics are really big on God’s mercy. 🙂 We talk about it all the time and have great faith in it. So entrusting our unbaptized babies to His mercy isn’t as dubious as it might seem. But we really don’t know. All we know is that God commands baptism as the usual door to salvation. There may be another door but it’s not up to us to assume there is and think that baptism is unnecessary.
In His love,
Rhonda
 
"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them, “allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism”
Yes, I had read this before, and I think it explains things very well. I guess this becomes a case of trusting that the God who created the entire universe just might know what He is doing.
 
The Iambic Pen:
Yes, I had read this before, and I think it explains things very well. I guess this becomes a case of trusting that the God who created the entire universe just might know what He is doing.
It sounds so easy, yet sometimes it’s so hard to do!
 
The Iambic Pen:
So, all of this being said, I ask for your prayers. If Catholicism is indeed the truth, then obviously I desire to embrace it.
I will certainly do this IP and if you will forgive a “superstitious catholic” :rolleyes: I will light a candle for you to Our Lady

In thee have I trusted O Lord
Let me not be confounded in eternity
 
My wife and I had a little bit of a problem as we we coming back to the Church from and evangelical background. My kids were 5 and 3 when they were baptized because that is when we came back to the Catholic Church.
We had many discussions with this with people from our old church and now the Catholic Church I have become comfortable with the Catholic understanding. This is a simplified reason why…

Since baptism replaces circumcision in the same way the Catholicism completes Judiasm then it is normal to replace the circumcision with baptism which was done for infants. Now done not just for males\jews but now for males\females\everyone. It is in effect allowing the infant the gift from God. Just like I wouldn’t deny my babies food why would I deny them this gift from God is it a good thing or a bad thing?
My kids can’t really ask specifically for food, water, shelter, instruction, many things does that mean I deny them. What greater gift is there than to be part of the new covenant?

Don’t be afraid, most of my apprehension to the Catholic Church was from what I thought it was not what it really is. I didn’t leave anything behind in investigating Catholicism, I am still a Bible reading Christian, I just now have completeness.

God Bless
Scylla
 
The Iambic Pen:
I guess I’m still hitting a snag when it comes to the belief that baptism has any value for a participant who is unaware of what is going on.
Simply put, it cleans the child of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. Tabula Rasa, no idealogical (name removed by moderator)ut necessary.

Subrosa
 
I know that the Holy Innocents, the children who died when Herod was seeking the death of the child Jesus, are considered martyrs. They were too young to know what was going on or why they were dying, but they died for Christ, and so Catholics believe that God rewarded them as martyrs. I don’t know what the position is on these children in other churches, but it is another example that God can give grace to children without them consciously choosing to accept it. I have no idea if this will help at all, but I thought I’d throw it in here.
 
The Iambic Pen:
I

Hmmh… I guess I’m still hitting a snag when it comes to the belief that baptism has any value for a participant who is unaware of what is going on.
Well, let’s see…
  1. Do I give my child it’s immunity shots before it gives approval? If so, why?
  2. And then there was an opinion (of God Himself) opposed to your reasoning:
    Exodus 4* 24* And when he was in his journey, in the inn, the Lord met him, and would have killed him. 25 Immediately Sephora took a very sharp stone, and circumcised the fore skin of her son, and touched his feet and said: A bloody spouse art thou to me.26 And he let him go after she had said A bloody spouse art thou to me, because of the circumcision. ( 24 “The Lord met him, and would have killed him”… This was an angel representing the Lord, who treated Moses in this manner, for having neglected the circumcision of his younger son; which his wife understanding, circumcised her child upon the spot, upon which the angel let Moses go.)
 
I will certainly do this IP and if you will forgive a “superstitious catholic” :rolleyes: I will light a candle for you to Our Lady
Thank you!
Don’t be afraid, most of my apprehension to the Catholic Church was from what I thought it was not what it really is. I didn’t leave anything behind in investigating Catholicism, I am still a Bible reading Christian, I just now have completeness.
That is wonderful to hear, and I see myself in a similiar manner. If I come to the Catholic Church, it will not be like coming into a new faith, but rather reaching a deeper understanding of the faith I already have.

I notice that I still say, “if I come into the Catholic Church,” or something of that kind all the time. The fact is, until I am absolutely sure of the truth, I don’t want to make absolute predictions about what I may or may not believe in the future. One thing I can say is this: I earnestly desire to do the will of God and to serve Him completely.

Thanks for all the baptism/circumcision comparisons. They certainly do seem to be applied under similiar circumstances and with a similiar effect.

God Bless!
 
Hello, thanks for the response, I have just returned from Mass with and now am at my sister-in-laws house hanging out until she gets back from Calvary Chapel. We had a little friction when my wife and I decided to start going to the Catholic Church, but now everything is fine we are past that. They now know that we don’t worship statues, or sacrifice Jesus again and again.
We have reached a good understanding, but they have so many friends at Calvary Chapel, they really are hesitant to look into Catholicism seriously.
I do associate with many people from Calvary Chapel and have a good relationship, and I think it is good to foster better understanding of different perspectives. Only a small few have ever said rude things or not wanted to talk to me anymore. Maybe that is because we have always had close relationships with people from Calvary Chapel and they know I studied my way in, (they just don’t want to hear about it).

So I pray that you trust Jesus and take your time reading and following the truth.

God Bless
Scylla
 
<<Evangelicals I know are not out to condemn Catholics. They desire, rather to see the world saved for God. I admire them and hope to be more like them. Perhaps Catholicism is true. If that is the case, then I pray that they, along with me, will return home to the Catholic Church. Until that day, I ask that you would see us not as your enemies, but rather as your brothers and sisters in Christ. Please pray that all Christians will know the truth and come together in perfect love for God, for each other, and for all people. I thank you for your prayers! May God bless you all!>>

I definitely do not see my Protestant brothers and sisters as my enemies, and am glad that you have posted here. You are peaceful and have posted questions and are willing to understand where we are coming from.

Thank you and God bless you!

Dorothy
 
IP,

Been gone for a week. Please be assured that I know that Protestants are beloved brothers and sisters in Christ, on fire for Jesus and deeply in love with him. I’m very glad to have you on this forum.
 
Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches. Two clear examples, among dozens of similar inscriptions, are all that we really need to support this claim. A man with the resounding Roman/Latin name of Murtius Verinus placed on the tomb of his children the inscription: “Verina received Baptism at the age of ten months, Florina at the age of twelve months.” The date of this tomb has been firmly established by radio-carbon dating of the children’s bones as being 105 AD +/- 4 years. Another tomb, not far away from this one, has the inscription: “Here rests Achillia, a newly-baptized infant; she was one year and five months old, died February 23rd…” and then follows the year of the reigning emperor, which dates her death to 91 AD. [see W. Wall, “History of Infant Baptism”, 2 Vols., London, 1900. and other related articles in various archeological journals from early this century.]

Sounds like its been around for a while, eh?

NotWorthy
 
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NotWorthy:
Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches. Two clear examples, among dozens of similar inscriptions, are all that we really need to support this claim. A man with the resounding Roman/Latin name of Murtius Verinus placed on the tomb of his children the inscription: “Verina received Baptism at the age of ten months, Florina at the age of twelve months.” The date of this tomb has been firmly established by radio-carbon dating of the children’s bones as being 105 AD +/- 4 years. Another tomb, not far away from this one, has the inscription: “Here rests Achillia, a newly-baptized infant; she was one year and five months old, died February 23rd…” and then follows the year of the reigning emperor, which dates her death to 91 AD. [see W. Wall, “History of Infant Baptism”, 2 Vols., London, 1900. and other related articles in various archeological journals from early this century.]

Sounds like its been around for a while, eh?

NotWorthy
WOW. I have been looking for this kind of Proof for a long time. Where can I find this kind of proof (pictures,etc) today to show my
Protestant family members that criticize infant baptism?
 
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philipmarus:
WOW. I have been looking for this kind of Proof for a long time. Where can I find this kind of proof (pictures,etc) today to show my
Protestant family members that criticize infant baptism?
I don’t know. I’m going to ask my parish priest. He may be able to help. Of course, you’ll have to be able to read Latin or Greek(?) to be able to read them.

Notworthy
 
One must remember our Lord’s words on this.

“No one can come to me unless the Father wills it”

“One must be born of water and of the Spirit”

Faith is our loving response to God’s call. However, we are saved because of God’s grace (unless the Father wills it).

Infant Baptism is a perfect example of this Grace. Salvation is freely given to everyone whether or not he or she can decide for or against it. If it requires a confession of faith, is salvation not to be given to mentally impaired individuals who can not decide for themselves?
 
Well, I’ve been gone for a while, due to my schedule, temporary loss of internet on my end and apparent problems with the forum. I’m back, though!
scylla:
We had a little friction when my wife and I decided to start going to the Catholic Church, but now everything is fine we are past that. They now know that we don’t worship statues, or sacrifice Jesus again and again.
That’s good to hear! I must admit my mom wasn’t overly enthusiastic when I first told her I was investigating Catholicism, but after I explained things a little bit, she understands more now. The point I’ve tried to make to my family is that my study of Catholicism didn’t come about because of any desire to abandon my faith, but rather curiosity. As I studied, I discovered things about Catholicism that led me to think it might be true. This is where I am today.
So I pray that you trust Jesus and take your time reading and following the truth.
Thank you!

Dorothy:
I definitely do not see my Protestant brothers and sisters as my enemies, and am glad that you have posted here. You are peaceful and have posted questions and are willing to understand where we are coming from.
I too am glad I have posted here. It has been most educational and most enjoyable! Thanks!

neophyte:
Please be assured that I know that Protestants are beloved brothers and sisters in Christ, on fire for Jesus and deeply in love with him. I’m very glad to have you on this forum.
I thank you as well. Everyone on this forum has been extremely helpful.

NotWorthy:
Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches…Sounds like its been around for a while, eh?
I guess it has!

God Bless!
 
Everyone here has given you very good information. In order to understand infant baptism you first need a better understanding of original sin.

The doctrine of original sin is that “in” Adam all have sinned. This parallels the doctrine of justification that “in” Christ all are righteous. Through Adam all have died and through the second Adam (Christ) all have life. Look at Romans 5 verse 12 - it says that “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin.” Verses 15-16 talk about one man’s trespass that brought about condemnation of all and how we are all made sinners. Because of Adam’s sin, all men are made subject to sin and death. When Adam and Eve sinned the first sin, it was a total loss of sanctifying grace necessary for salvation. We are born not so much with a “stain” but a lack of sanctifying grace. Baptism (as all sacraments) gives us that sanctifying grace.

This is not ordinary sin - it affected all mankind forever, it changed the course of human history. It not only affected Adam personally; it also affected his human nature - which means it affected our human nature since we inherited it from him. This is “contracted” sin rather than “committed” sin - a state not an act. As stated above, the lack of sanctifying grace - you cannot pass on something you don’t have - Adam didn’t have sanctifying grace to pass on to us, therefore, we don’t have it either.

We are born with a fallen nature, a nature that is separated from God as a result of Adam’s sin. We have to be born again to become joined with God, to be “in” Christ, to become a member of the Body of Christ, to be saved. We are born of Adam’s body into condemnation. When we are born, we are born into the “flesh.” But the bible tells us that the “flesh is of no avail” because of the consequenses of original sin. That’s why Jesus says we have to be born again - into the Spirit. The first birth is birth of the flesh but we need something more in order to have life.

Adam is the representative of the flesh. Christ is the representative of the Spirit. When we are born physically, born into the flesh, we are in Adam. When we are baptized - when we are born again, when we are born of the Spirit - we are in Christ. Infants need to be baptized, just like anyone else so that they can be “in Christ”, so that they can become children of God, members of the Body of Christ, so they can be granted eternal life. This is why there are godparents. They are commited to helping the parents to bring the child into the knowledge of God - Christ. To bring them to the sacraments to continually receive God’s sanctifying grace, to help keep them on the path. The child’s baptism is not a single family event. It’s the an event for the faith community. The community agrees to help bring that child into a mature relationship with Christ.

As Catholics, we want all these things for our children, not just for adults. Why would anyone want to deny infants and children the incredible gifts received through baptism? As the bible tell us, the promise is to you and to your children (Acts 2:39).

Most of these comments came from an article in This Rock magazine - great article!
www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
 
The idea of “original sin” does not appear in Judaism, the parent
faith of Christianity.

St. Paul introduced the idea of “original sin” in his letters.

reen12
 
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