Infant Baptism - Laying out the facts

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Long read but worth it:

From the CCC:
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 (This reference is to John 3:5) He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

The Baptism of infants

*1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53*

Do you believe in original sin?
Thanks for some references. I believe that all will sin as we are human beings who are weak and destined to sin. I do not believe a baby has sinned though. I don’t know how a baby can go to hell for all of eternity because he has somehow sinned.
 
Thanks for some references. I believe that all will sin as we are human beings who are weak and destined to sin. I do not believe a baby has sinned though. I don’t know how a baby can go to hell for all of eternity because he has somehow sinned.
Where does the quote say that?
Why do you believe that the Church teaches that?
 
Where does the quote say that?
Why do you believe that the Church teaches that?
The CC teaches that one who is not Baptized as a baby and dies is in God’s hands and we have no idea their destination. Based on some of the passages posted (by Catholics as well) I believe that such children belong to the kingdom of Heaven. No reason to assume that they could at all be destined for anywhere else.
 
Thanks for some references. I believe that all will sin as we are human beings who are weak and destined to sin. I do not believe a baby has sinned though. I don’t know how a baby can go to hell for all of eternity because he has somehow sinned.
We are all at the mercy of God, aren’t we?

You know, every time I reply to your specific question you jump into something else that is most times - not related to what I posted.

It’s like talking to one of my 3 teenage kids…
 
The CC teaches that one who is not Baptized as a baby and dies is in God’s hands and we have no idea their destination. Based on some of the passages posted (by Catholics as well) I believe that such children belong to the kingdom of Heaven. No reason to assume that they could at all be destined for anywhere else.
Fine. So, no where does the Church teach the things you implied they did.
Please stop implying that.
 
We are all at the mercy of God, aren’t we?

You know, every time I reply to your specific question you jump into something else that is most times - not related to what I posted.

It’s like talking to one of my 3 teenage kids…
I’m sorry that you feel that way. I enjoy my discussions with you; it’s hard to keep track of who I’m replying to all the time though.

I agree that we’re all at the mercy of God, but those of us who intentionally reject Him are in a different state than those who have no way of rejecting or accepting anything.
 
The fact is, the Church has no idea. That’s why I don’t understand its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
What the Church does know is Jesus said you can’t enter heaven without it. All the more urgent says the Church to not have the children denied it. Not knowing also means that it is possible that they never go to heaven. Isn’t there a wager based on this principle?
 
Interesting theory, but the text remains; “Those who accepted his message were baptized” and infants could not accept his message.

As for the rest, even Paul states he’s glad that he only baptized a couple of people. You would think he wouldn’t care what they would say about him, but he says “I’m glad I didn’t baptize anyone else.” Doesn’t sound so urgent now does it?
Talk about pulling a verse out of context!!!

I would hope that you would know what St. Paul was discussing when he said that. Don’t resort to using verses out of context to support your argument, as it speaks to the weakness of your position.

1 Cor 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that* there are rivalries among you**. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul," or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.*

The Corinthians were forming groups based upon who had baptized them, and claiming to belong to the thinking/teaching of a specific Apostle or bishop. Paul is rebuking this thinking and reminding them that the Church is ONE, and the faith is ONE. The baptism that is performed is Christ’s sacrament, and belongs to the Church. It is universal, there is ONE baptism. Paul is ONLY stating that he was glad that there was not a group that could claim this as he did not do many baptisms while there. That was for the bishops and priests in Corinth to perform.
 
I’m sorry that you feel that way. I enjoy my discussions with you; it’s hard to keep track of who I’m replying to all the time though.

I agree that we’re all at the mercy of God, but those of us who intentionally reject Him are in a different state than those who have no way of rejecting or accepting anything.
See adrift’s post - which is included in my link to the Catechism. It really is worth a read.
 
dronald. You asked (emphasis mine),
Why would a child need to be Baptized if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them?
One could ask the same question of some adults who HAVE committed sins (and we both know the answer to WHY these adults still need their one Baptism).
Why would an adult who is poor in spirit need to be Baptized if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them?
MATTHEW 5:3 3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Does that mean this guy who we might see as being “poor in spirit” wouldn’t need to be Baptized? No.

Why would this “poor in spirit” person need to be Baptized? Because they have original sin and committed sin that’s why.

Or one could ask . . . .
Why would an adult who is persecuted for righteousness sake need to be Baptized if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them?
MATTHEW 5:10 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Why would this persecuted adult need to be Baptized? Sin.

And remember even Jesus implied the Pharisees had SOME righteousness.

But are the Pharisees exempt from Baptism now that it is available to them? No.

MATTHEW 5:20 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Why do ALL these people need the grace of Christ on Calvary applied to them? Why do ALL of these people need Baptism?

The answer of course is because of sin. In the adults case, it is because of Original AND committed sins.

In the infant’s case it is merely because of Original sin, which they do have.

And notice in the same context of “let the little children come to me for to such belongs the kingdom of Heaven”, the adult can “hinder them”.

If you are going to assume infants automatically go to Heaven because of “Let the little children come to Me”, then it is just as appropriate to realize an adults can facilitate them in coming to Christ and the adults CAN “HINDER them”.

The historic Christian position is that infants now CAN (if facilitated by their parents), have their Original Sin forgiven and more than that, actually become sons and daughters of God (through the grace of Christ that is now being applied to them).

dronald. The question again was,
Why would a child need to be Baptized if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them?
One other way to look at this is by Moses.
Why would a child need to be Circumcised in the Old Covenant if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them?
Moses probably rationalized the same thought process (infants don’t need "circumcision to be in the Covenant) when he chose to neglect circumcision for his baby boy. Yet God almost killed Moses for this omission.

I thought we already addressed the Acts 10 issue but I will look it up so I get the quotes correct and get back on this (it had to do with ordinary means vrs. extraordinary means of salvation – something which we realize can occur but something we also do not assume will occur for any individual).
 
Cornelius and Acts 10 and extraordinary means of salvation

For those who no fault of their own cannot obey God’s commands (like Moses’ infant son could not circumcise himself yet Moses was held accountable for this) God may choose to work outside of the Sacramental realm. In like manner parents almost certainly will be held accountable if they “blow-off” Baptism for their infant children, just as Moses was held accountable for neglecting circumcision for his son.

But what is the issue with Acts 10 and Baptism (for some of the thread readers that may be unfamiliar with this issue)?

Let’s begin with some of the salient verses.

ACTS 10:43-48 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

The question is WHY Cornelius (and his “posse”) received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism and not after Baptism? If Cornelius etc, can receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism, are we not to think infants receive this too?

WHY did Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism, if Baptism is so important?

It is because Cornelius was the first Gentile to the Catholic Faith and this was a “seismic event”. This blew the top off the proverbial “Richter scale”.

We were all Temple Jews (not rabbinic Jews) before then. All the Christians were Temple Jews. This bringing in Cornelius etc. is going to raise a lot of eyebrows. Bringing goyim into the Church is going to cause a lot of rift. Especially among the “Circumcision Party” who St. Peter and St. Paul and others were already trying to calm down.

This issue would have fractured the early Church, but because it was St. Peter, and because of the visible manifestations that God provided, there is hardly a blip on the radar over Gentiles coming into the Church (except as it concerns “circumcision”).

So yes Cornelius (etc.) DID receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism. But this is an exceptional case. Catholics call that “Extraordinary means” of salvation.

St. Gregory of Nazienzen in the 300’s A.D. was matter-of-factly explained that what happened to Cornelius et. al. (receiving the Holy Spirit) . . . .

. . . . occurred before Baptism . . .

. . . . but to OTHERS (that’d be me . . . . and you, . . . . etc.)

. . . . we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER Baptism (technically during Baptism).

Here is a Doctor of the Church, St. Gregory of Nazienzen on the Acts 10 issue.

ST. GREGORY OF NAZIENZEN Will you not reverence even the authority of the Spirit Who breathes upon whom, and when, and as He wills? He comes upon Cornelius and his companions before Baptism, to others after Baptism, by the hands of the Apostles; so that from both sides, both from the fact that He comes in the guise of a Master and not of a Servant, and from the fact of His being sought to make perfect, the Godhead of the Spirit is testified.
– St Gregory of Nazienzen Oration XIV Preached at Constantinople in 380 A.D.

Baptism is what we are called to (Ordinary means of salvation). Yet God Himself may, for exceptional reasons (i.e. martyrs who cannot possibly get Baptized), may Himself choose to work outside of such means. But we NEVER PRESUME God does such (in an individual case) without the authority of the Church.

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

(Italics original)

So although Cornelius DID receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism, this WAS an exception. We cannot use an exception to establish the normative means.

You would have the same issue dronald. Someone could say: “Why did Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit before he recited a sinners prayer?” Someone might say, “Well he exhibited faithfulness before that”. But then you’d have to ask: “Then WHY didn’t Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit before this if he was faithful?” You could come up with reasons (like St. Peter’s preaching), but none of these reasons would be in conformity with historic Christianity.

The reasoning I am giving, IS in conformity with historical Christianity.

I’ll give some other historic data on the next post. Mostly quotes so you (and others) can copy and paste them to their “Baptism” files that they save for future discussions.
  • Ordinary Means of Salvation (What Jesus instructed us to do so we obey Him) = Baptism
  • Extraordinary Means of Salvation = What God MAY do as He Himself is not bound by his sacraments
 
Let’s listen to St. Augustine in the late 300’s or early 400’s.

ST. AUGUSTINE “Sion heard of it, and rejoiced” (verse 8). What did Sion hear? That all His Angels worship Him. . . . For the Church was not as yet among the Gentiles; in Judaea the Jews had some of them believed, and the very Jews who believed thought that they only belonged to Christ: the Apostles were sent to the Gentiles, Cornelius was preached to; Cornelius believed, was baptized, and they who were with Cornelius were also baptized.(3) But ye know what happened, that they might be baptized: the reader indeed hath not reached this point, but, nevertheless, some recollect; and let those who do not recollect, hear briefly from me. The Angel was sent to Cornelius: the Angel sent Cornelius to Peter; Peter came to Cornelius. And because Cornelius and his household were Gentiles, and uncircumcised: lest they might hesitate to give the Gospel to the uncircumcised: before Cornelius and his household were baptized, the Holy Spirit came, and filled them, and they began to speak with tongues. Now the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon any one who had not been baptized: but upon these it fell before baptism. For Peter might hesitate whether he might baptize the uncircumcised: the Holy Spirit came, they began to speak with tongues; the invisible gift was given, and took away all doubt about the visible Sacrament; they were all baptized.
-- From St. Augustine on the Psalms - PSALM XCVII – Section 11​

Also here is Pope St. Gregory the Great from the 500’s A.D. on Acts 10.

POPE ST. GREGORY THE GREAT For certainly Peter had received power in the heavenly kingdom, so that whatever he should bind or loose on earth should be bound or loosed in heaven; he walked on the sea, he healed the sick with his shadow, be slew sinners with his word, he raised the dead by his prayer. And because by the admonition of the Spirit he had gone in to Cornelius the Gentile, a question was raised against him by the believers as to why he had gone in among Gentiles and eaten with them, and why he had received them in baptism.

And yet this first of the apostles, filled with such gifts of grace, supported by such power of miracles, replied to the complaint of the believers, not by power but by reason, and explained . . . . how three men came to him calling him to Cornelius; how the Holy Spirit bade him go with them; how the same Holy Spirit who had been wont to come on those baptized in Judea after baptism, came on the Gentiles before baptism. For if, when he was blamed by the believers, he had paid regard to the authority which he had received in Holy Church, he might have replied that the sheep should not dare to find fault with the shepherd to whom they had been committed. But, had he said anything of his own power in answer to the complaint of the believers, he would not have been truly a teacher of gentleness. He pacified them, therefore, by giving a reason humbly, and even produced witnesses to defend him from blame, saying, Moreover these six brethren accompanied me (Acts xi. 12).
-- The Great Epistles Book XI. EPISTLE XLV: TO THEOCTISTA, PATRICIAN​

Again St. Augustine this time from his letter against the Donatist heretics BOOK IV, Chapter 1 (De Bartismo contra Donatistas).

Remember the Lord brought all the Donatist heretics BACK to the Church through St. Augustine! There is NO Donatist heresy (proper) since St. Augustine!

Incidentally, this was shown nicely in the recent movie Restless Heart—The Confessions of St. Augustine (at least in the longer version—they include both versions—view free trailer here, movie here) along with a brief into to St. Ambrose who himself was used to convert St. Augustine to the Catholic faith.

St. Augustine also talks of this and Baptism in the following (I added the “Magus” for clarity) . . .

ST. AUGUSTINE With regard to the objection brought against Cyprian, that the catechumens who were seized in martyrdom, and slain for Christ’s name’s sake, received a crown even without baptism, I do not quite see what it has to do with the matter, unless, indeed, they urged that heretics could much more be admitted with baptism to Christ’s kingdom, to which catechumens were admitted without it, since He Himself has said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (1) Now, in this matter I do not hesitate for a moment to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with love for God, before the baptized heretic; nor yet do we thereby do dishonor to the sacrament of baptism which the latter has already received, the former not as yet; nor do we consider that the sacrament of the catechumen (2) is to be preferred to the sacrament of baptism, when we acknowledge that some catechumens are better and more faithful than some baptized persons. For the centurion Cornelius, before baptism, was better than Simon (Magus), who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit;(3) Simon (Magus), even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit.(4) Cornelius, however, would have been convicted of contempt for so holy a sacrament, if, even after he had received the Holy Ghost, he had refused to be baptized. But when he was baptized, he received in no wise a better sacrament than Simon (Magus) . . . .
— St. Augustine: The Writings Against the Manichaeans and Against the Donatists.​

St. Augustine pray for us.
 
Thanks for some references. I believe that all will sin as we are human beings who are weak and destined to sin. I do not believe a baby has sinned though. I don’t know how a baby can go to hell for all of eternity because he has somehow sinned.
Catholics don’t believe babies have commtted person sin either. But the fact is, babies are born HERE, instead of in Paradise. Why? Because they have contracted the sins of Adam, just like everyone else…original sin. So, just like everyone else, they need the Grace of God to blot out that stain. I believe I posted it here earlier, but to understand the teaching on Infant Baptism (which goes back to the very beginning, as even the OP proved for us), you have to understand the doctrine on Original Sin.

Short answer: we all need Grace because we are born without it. Christ gave us the ordinary means by which we get it. While God is not bound by that, we submit ourselves to what God gave us.

Longer answer: daves-ahumbleservant.blogspot.com/search/label/Baptism
 
This statement was very ironic of you.
Yes, I am a horrible person, because I have not yet attained the beatitude of patience.
It still doesn’t make the fact that you ignored my posts untrue.
Thank you, this was though provoking.

Doesn’t acts 2:39 concern the gift of the Holy Spirit being promised to people everywhere whom God calls?

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

I’m interested in why the Holy Spirit landed on those who believed before Baptism in Acts 10?
Catholics never said that the Holy Spirit cannot inspire unbaptized people. You seem to think that Catholics teach that ONLY Baptism transmits Grace… which is not true.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Why would a child need to be Baptized if the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them? That’s the whole issue here is that children are not held accountable for their parents sin when they die. They have no knowledge of right and wrong and Jesus clearly says that they go to Heaven in what you’ve quoted here.
Catholics do NOT teach that children are accountable for their parent’s personal sins.
Catholics know that the Original Sin taints us, and that is why we end up sinning.
They have no knowledge between good and evil and won’t be held accountable by God for it. They shouldn’t be condemned to hell for all of eternity (or limbo) because they were born unable to learn of Baptism, or anything for that matter.
Now you are splitting hairs…
1st: I mentioned that some people with mental disabilities are not born with them, they might get the mental disability after they have lived as an adult. I know that because one of my aunts did get like that in her 90s. Would you say that such a person gains salvation as soon as they lose the capability to acknowledge God?
2nd: Now you are distinguishing “unable to learn of Baptism”… that can include even Atheists, or Hindus, or God knows what else…
That would make evangelizing a deterrent of getting people to Heaven because then you are making it for sure that they are able to learn of Baptism.
3rd: Your argument just poses more questions than it answers… when does one get enough knowledge? At 4? At 18? At 25?.. And what about people with lower IQ? 35?

dronald, I don’t want to be mean, but this conversation will not get us anywhere.
You come from a church where everyone can read a bible and interpret it the way they want it. Why do you think there are so many different Christian churches in the US? Some say gay marriage is good, some say contraception is good, some say some books shouldn’t be in the bible, on and on and on it goes.
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ left a visible Vicar that would prevent the Church to lead people into error.
The fact is that the Baptist Church is a few hundred years old, and it has taught incorrectly in the past, and the Catholic Church has never taught differently. You just have to study History!

I will pray that the Holy Spirit can enlighten you, but He’s not going to force you to see the Truth… you are going to have to choose it… after all, you are old enough…

P.S.: I would just like to leave on a funny note:
Leave it to the “Baptists” to say that “Baptism” is:
Not necessary
Provides no Grace
,
But if you don’t do it by immersion you are being heretical…
It makes perfect sense. (NOT!)

God bless,
D.
 

Matthew 28​

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”​

Mark 10:13-16.
13 And they were bringing children to him, that he might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it he was indignant, and said to them, “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.​

Acts 2: 38-40
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2n661LhXZ
About 3000 were baptized, wouldn’t it seem almost impossible there would be no children to baptize.
They must have been in school. 🤷

Jon
 
Interesting theory, but the text remains; “Those who accepted his message were baptized” and infants could not accept his message.
And this fails completely in the context of Judaism which was steeped in the idea that A) infants were circumcised and B) that God’s covenant with his people was for ALL ages.

🙂
As for the rest, even Paul states he’s glad that he only baptized a couple of people. You would think he wouldn’t care what they would say about him, but he says “I’m glad I didn’t baptize anyone else.” Doesn’t sound so urgent now does it?
Are you not in error because you do not know the scriptures? Paul wrote that he was glad that he did not baptize many people because A) that was not his mission, and B) because he did not want people to feel superior because they had been baptized by him. Here is the scripture you need:

1 Corinthians 1:13-17
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15** so no one can say that you were baptized in my name**. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Now, why would Paul say that he had “baptized the household of Stephanas” instead of just saying that he had “baptized Stephanas and his wife” or “Stephanas, his wife and his older kids”? It’s because he baptized EVERYONE in the household…not just those above the age of reason.

Scripture repeats this phrase over and over and over…household…oikos in Greek. Lydia, the Philippian jailer, Stephanas. Whole households were baptized.

And you do not have a single verse…not one…that says that infants were not included.

🙂
 
lilymc

bmonk stated:

You will no doubt be applying that to the concept of infant Baptism (as bmonk has anticipated and I likewise have also ran into this objection from Anabaptists).

Although the EVENT itself can be divorced from Infant Baptism, the CONCEPT presented in the Gospels shows it cannot be used to divorce infants from Baptism.

Why?

Jesus tells Nicodemus he needs to be “born again” (“born anew” or “born from above”). Nicodemus was confused (HOW do I do THAT?).

Jesus then tells Nicodemus the answer. Jesus tells him one (not “you Nicodemus” not “adults only”) but “one” must be “born of water and the Spirit”.

JOHN 3:3-4a, 5, 22 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? . . . . 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. . . . 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.

But notice what else Jesus said: unless one is born of water and the Spirit, “he cannot enter the kingdom of God”.

Now concerning the infants (sucklings) who were brought to Jesus, what did Jesus say?

“To such as these belong the Kingdom of God” and Jesus warned men (in this case His own disciples) not to “hinder them”.

Jesus told Nicodemus that UNLESS one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

If to “such as these” belong the Kingdom . . .

But no one can enter the kingdom UNLESS they are born of water and Spirit . . . .

Then it is evident that “to such as these” CAN be “born of water and the Spirit”.

And not ONLY can “such as these” be born of water and the Spirit, but men CAN HINDER them!

One Cause Of The Indignation Of God

And we find out when men DO hinder “such as these” from approaching Jesus what happens?

Notice first of all, adults CAN hinder them. Jesus gets indignant (see Mark 10:14) as a result of this shenanigans!

This causes great indignation to our Lord Jesus Christ. It upsets Him very much. It causes Jesus who is God to have indignation or displeasure, exasperation, fury, rage etc.

Do you want to cause the “indignation” of our Lord Jesus when you can avoid it?

And when you consider Jesus and his disciples were already going throughout the country and Baptizing (see John 4:1-2), it is very plausible with what Jesus said, that these “sucklings” were already Baptized by His disciples!

LUKE 18:15-17 15 Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to him, saying, Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.

Notice Jesus seems to think these sucklings CAN receive the Kingdom of God. So do I. So do all believing Catholics. So do all the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. So do most of the Protestants. Do you lilymc?

Preempting A Phony “Greek Argument” In Advance

The word “Paidion” which is also in Luke 18 usually concerns an infant (“paidon” is used in Matthew 19:13 and 14 and Mark 10:13 and 14) but not necessarily . . . BUT . . . .

But since “paidon” is used interchangeably here in Luke 18 with “brephae” it certainly points to paidon being used as infants in this case due to this context of usage.

The Greek word for “infants” in Luke 18:15 is “brephae” (infants or sucklings).

Adults CAN bring Infants or “Sucklings” to Christ!
  • LUKE 18:15a 15 Now they were bringing even infants to him . . .
  • MATTHEW 19:13 13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. . . .
  • MARK 10:13a 13 And they were bringing children to him, that he might touch them . . .
And Adults CAN Hinder Infants or “Sucklings” From Coming to Christ!
Great post. As well as the others that follow. I have pasted them to my baptism file. Thanks. 👍
 
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