Infant Baptism - out of wedlock

[Phemie]

There is a reason why a priest is called a physician of souls. It is not a title that is without meaning.

The priest who is doing this baptism is the pastor, the shepherd, of these souls – the father and the mother as well as the baby. No one else…not a priest who is commenting on this situation and certainly not a lay person…has the knowledge of the situation or of the people themselves as they are in this present moment. In fact, we do not know, nor should we know, what this pastor knows. He knows why he has discerned the “founded hope” mandated by canon law for proceeding with the baptism. He alone knows where this couple is in the process of regularising their union.

I, too, have seen the harm done by those who come in, like bulls in a china shop, destroying the work of grace that had been at work…sometimes for years. In eternity, these people will suddenly know and discover the incalculable harm they did by their purposeless intervention. May God have mercy upon their immortal souls.

In an ideal parish all that you say applies. In mine, the priest meets the parents for the first time at the back of the church on the day of the Baptism and knows nothing about them.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

In an ideal parish all that you say applies. In mine, the priest meets the parents for the first time at the back of the church on the day of the Baptism and knows nothing about them.

Doesn’t matter if that is the case, the baby should still be baptised. Why should we punish the baby for the sins of it’s parents?

 

[otjm]

I never said “confront” them. It should be done in love and kindness. But to just to stand by and not “Use words” when possible, would NOT be following Church teaching. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on EWTN said they have read all of what St. Francis said, and he did NOT say “Only use words when necessary.” No one seems to know who started that and blamed it on St. Francis but it is not true! And it has spread like wildfire! It seems to be an excuse for some to not ever evangelize God Bless, Memaw

I think if you read my post, I already said that St Francis didn’t say it.

As to it being wrong, I beg to differ. Anyone can (and all together too many do) say a lot of words; and people who are the recipient of all those words often look at the speaker and see a person who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. I have seen and heard too many instances where people let the Church, or had already left the Church and were driven further away, because some busybody had to take them on and tell them what sinners they were.

As I said in my posts, and as Don (Father) Ruggero seconded in his posts, it is the duty of the priest to engage the couple in the matter of their life. **It is not **the duty of the Op to do so, whether or not the OP becomes the godparent.

If the couple were to bring up the matter with the godparent, then the godparent could, in charity, answer their questions. But there is a very real likelihood that the pastor may already be addressing the matter, and the very real possibility that the OP could make things worse instead of better. As Don Ruggero has said, he has seen plenty of circumstances where that has occurred, as have I.

There is far more than one way to evangelize; and living the life of a committed Catholic is one of them. People are attracted to that, and they then open up subjects; and one has the opportunity to respond. You may think it is an excuse to not evangelize; but I am not using excuses; I am evangelizing. Just because I don’t go around in a modification of the fire and brimstone preacher on the street corner, spouting off all about sins and the sinners around me, does not mean I am failing to evangelize.

 

[HelenRose]

One thing I have been in my life is a “people watcher”. Maybe it is just me, but I have seen so many instances of individuals who have felt an overwhelming need to “admonish the sinner”; and I have watched those being admonished. I watch eyes; and I could tell at just about the exact moment the “sinner” simply shut down and stopped listening.
I have also received many an earful from those sinners, who likened the one admonishing to “that stuck-up prig”; this being the most polite reference to the admonisher, and most of the references being unprintable in polite discourse.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that the couple in question in the OP’s post may already have an inkling that they are not in a proper relationship with one another and with God.

I did not suggest, and never would, that if one were asked by the couple questions concerning their status, that one should be any less than honest, and deliver any answer in charity. My suggestion is that the OP not confront the couple.

And I will stand by that, as well as my comment about how one should “preach the Gospel”. Strangely, I have only heard the comment made by Catholics. Including not a few Catholic teachers.

And considering that Pope Francis has started us on the year of Mercy, I have a sneaking suspicion he might agree with my comment too.

I agree.

There are two wonderful expressions that I often read in Catholic literature. “Discernment” and “Prudential Judgement”.

We must use discernment and prudential judgement when we take it upon ourselves to pass judgement on someone else’s behavior. We can not know the whole story. We can not know where another person is in their journey.

What if a self-righteous person lands on a couple who have decided that they should get married and are in the process of turning their lives around? What incalculable damage could be done if they are told by a fool and in so many words that they are going to hell in a hand basket?

No, we do not have the right to proclaim ourselves the judge of sinners. Only if we know exactly what we are doing, know the situation and have the trust and respect of those involved can we approach them with overwhelming humility, compassion and understanding.

 

[otjm]

Only if we know exactly what we are doing, know the situation ***and have the trust and respect of those involved ***can we approach them with overwhelming humility, compassion and understanding.

My bold.

I have not been involved in RCIA over a 20 year period, and Catholics Returning Home for about half that time, because I refuse to evangelize. But I have lived long enough, and observed way more than enough to know that most often, the person who is astray seriously knows it; and all too often I have seen someone come in and drive the individual or couple farther away. That may not have been what that someone intended, but it most certainly is the result.

Don (Father) Ruggero is a wise man, and not just because of experience; it would do us all good to re-read what he has written.

 

[HelenRose]

My bold.

I have not been involved in RCIA over a 20 year period, and Catholics Returning Home for about half that time, because I refuse to evangelize. But I have lived long enough, and observed way more than enough to know that most often, the person who is astray seriously knows it; and all too often I have seen someone come in and drive the individual or couple farther away. That may not have been what that someone intended, but it most certainly is the result.

Don (Father) Ruggero is a wise man, and not just because of experience; it would do us all good to re-read what he has written.

I would not approach anyone either. There may be situations in which a close friend or relative may be able to intervene and help but it would have to be by someone who really cares and understands fully what is going on. There is nothing more apt to turn someone away from the Church than a “holier than thou” comment made.

The young people in my family - grandkids, nieces and nephews are, on the whole, living irregular lives. My grandson and his girl friend have a little girl. I know the baggage that they have carried into their relationship. I know their life stories. I understand fully why they say, “Why get married? It is only a piece of paper.” They know that my husband and I want them to get married because they know that we love the three of them so very much. We care. We love. We pray. But we DO NOT advise. They have had enough pain in their lives to hear from me about how they should run their lives. I do not apologize being their cheer leader and backing them in anyway that I can. They know that they can turn to me and my husband.

P.S. I am constantly talking to their guardian angels. Because I know that their angels know, understand and love them infinitely more that I do, I ask the angels for advise. I ask their angels to help me keep watch over my tongue. I have turn the problem over to their angels.

 

[Memaw]

I think if you read my post, I already said that St Francis didn’t say it.

As to it being wrong, I beg to differ. Anyone can (and all together too many do) say a lot of words; and people who are the recipient of all those words often look at the speaker and see a person who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. I have seen and heard too many instances where people let the Church, or had already left the Church and were driven further away, because some busybody had to take them on and tell them what sinners they were.

As I said in my posts, and as Don (Father) Ruggero seconded in his posts, it is the duty of the priest to engage the couple in the matter of their life. **It is not **the duty of the Op to do so, whether or not the OP becomes the godparent.

If the couple were to bring up the matter with the godparent, then the godparent could, in charity, answer their questions. But there is a very real likelihood that the pastor may already be addressing the matter, and the very real possibility that the OP could make things worse instead of better. As Don Ruggero has said, he has seen plenty of circumstances where that has occurred, as have I.

There is far more than one way to evangelize; and living the life of a committed Catholic is one of them. People are attracted to that, and they then open up subjects; and one has the opportunity to respond. You may think it is an excuse to not evangelize; but I am not using excuses; I am evangelizing. Just because I don’t go around in a modification of the fire and brimstone preacher on the street corner, spouting off all about sins and the sinners around me, does not mean I am failing to evangelize.

To go to extremes either way is not the answer either. If someone asks me to be a God parent to their child, I do believe I have the obligation to them and to myself but most especially to the child to feel that they are sincere in their obligation to raise the child in the Catholic Faith. To be a Godparent is a very serious obligation, (taken to lightly by so many.) They are asked that by the Church in the Baptism ceremony. I have been a God mother to to many of my families children that were NOT sincere and have NOT raised their children in the faith. Many think the Church “owes” their children baptism simply because they gave birth to them and the parents do not “owe” their child anything when it comes to raising them in the faith. I have a niece who has had 5 children out of wedlock, all by different fathers and has not raised any of them in the faith. I am God mother to 2 of them. Her sister is now caring for her 5th child.This situation has become so rampant in our modern society. Just shuffling them thru the Baptismal line is NOT the answer. Better preparation for the parents is sorely needed no matter what the situation of the birth of the child is. There has to be a better way to handle this. God Bless, Memaw

 

[otjm]

To go to extremes either way is not the answer either. If someone asks me to be a God parent to their child, I do believe I have the obligation to them and to myself but most especially to the child to feel that they are sincere in their obligation to raise the child in the Catholic Faith. To be a Godparent is a very serious obligation, (taken to lightly by so many.) They are asked that by the Church in the Baptism ceremony. I have been a God mother to to many of my families children that were NOT sincere and have NOT raised their children in the faith. Many think the Church “owes” their children baptism simply because they gave birth to them and the parents do not “owe” their child anything when it comes to raising them in the faith. I have a niece who has had 5 children out of wedlock, all by different fathers and has not raised any of them in the faith. I am God mother to 2 of them. Her sister is now caring for her 5th child.This situation has become so rampant in our modern society. Just shuffling them thru the Baptismal line is NOT the answer. Better preparation for the parents is sorely needed no matter what the situation of the birth of the child is. There has to be a better way to handle this. God Bless, Memaw

We are not in disagreement; however, that responsibility is the priest’s or deacon’s, not ours, and as Don (Father)Ruggero has noted, it is not our place to judge the decision of the priest or deacon. We do not know what they may know; nor is it our business to try to find out.

I am all for speaking the truth, and the Truth, when the situation is provided; and part of that providing is that there is a relationship of trust between the person needing the admonition/correction and myself. Just as I may have a duty to admonish, I also have a duty to not put a block in the way of the other individual reconciling with Christ. Which is another way of saying, I have a duty to not drive them farther away from Christ. And in the decades I have been around, I have seen far more than I care to think about of people driving others farther and farther away from the Church and from Christ, and have witnessed all too many times a judgementalism subsequent to the admonishment, when the one admonished became more hardened.

I am not in disagreement that we have a very large part of our Church which is significantly astray; in the 18 to 26 age group, about 1 in 5 attends Mass on a regular basis; which is saying that 80% of that age group attends occasionally or not at all. Sex before marriage is so common, one wonders if there are any who do not engage in it (there are, but they are in a significantly small minority). It is not like I am hiding my head in the sand. But telling someone they are in the wrong, are sinful, are not following the Church and Christ, is not something I am going to engage in unless and until I have some sort of relationship of trust established with them. If they ask, I will speak. And if they don’t ask, I will pray for them.

 

[Memaw]

We are not in disagreement; however, that responsibility is the priest’s or deacon’s, not ours, and as Don (Father)Ruggero has noted, it is not our place to judge the decision of the priest or deacon. We do not know what they may know; nor is it our business to try to find out.

I am all for speaking the truth, and the Truth, when the situation is provided; and part of that providing is that there is a relationship of trust between the person needing the admonition/correction and myself. Just as I may have a duty to admonish, I also have a duty to not put a block in the way of the other individual reconciling with Christ. Which is another way of saying, I have a duty to not drive them farther away from Christ. And in the decades I have been around, I have seen far more than I care to think about of people driving others farther and farther away from the Church and from Christ, and have witnessed all too many times a judgementalism subsequent to the admonishment, when the one admonished became more hardened.

I am not in disagreement that we have a very large part of our Church which is significantly astray; in the 18 to 26 age group, about 1 in 5 attends Mass on a regular basis; which is saying that 80% of that age group attends occasionally or not at all. Sex before marriage is so common, one wonders if there are any who do not engage in it (there are, but they are in a significantly small minority). It is not like I am hiding my head in the sand. But telling someone they are in the wrong, are sinful, are not following the Church and Christ, is not something I am going to engage in unless and until I have some sort of relationship of trust established with them. If they ask, I will speak. And if they don’t ask, I will pray for them.

Most of the Baptism classes I have attended and there have been many, we never saw a priest. Usually a Deacon or lay person. I even taught the classes in one parish I attended. But the priest that prepared me strongly emphasized inquiring about the parents attendance of Mass and sincerity in their faith. He gave me a list of questions and if I was in ANY doubt, I was to set up a meeting with him. The decision would NOT be up to me. Having your child Baptized is a very serious step for parents and should NEVER be taken lightly by them or those instructing them and even the Godparents. In some parishes I even had to get a form filled out by my pastor to prove I am a practicing Catholic, before I could be approved as a Godparent for the baby. I liked that part and never hesitated to do so. If it is that important for a Godparent to be a practicing Catholic, why not the parents also!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Most of the Baptism classes I have attended and there have been many, we never saw a priest. Usually a Deacon or lay person. I even taught the classes in one parish I attended. But the priest that prepared me strongly emphasized inquiring about the parents attendance of Mass and sincerity in their faith. He gave me a list of questions and if I was in ANY doubt, I was to set up a meeting with him. The decision would NOT be up to me. Having your child Baptized is a very serious step for parents and should NEVER be taken lightly by them or those instructing them and even the Godparents. In some parishes I even had to get a form filled out by my pastor to prove I am a practicing Catholic, before I could be approved as a Godparent for the baby. I liked that part and never hesitated to do so. If it is that important for a Godparent to be a practicing Catholic, why not the parents also!! God Bless, Memaw

These are the words of His Holiness Pope Francis. I think they are quite clear and should need no commentary:
A single mother goes to the parish to ask for Baptism for her child and hears “a Christian” say: “no, you can’t have it, you’re not married”. “Look at this girl who had had the courage to carry her pregnancy to term” and not to have an abortion. “What does she find? A closed door”, as do so many. “This is not good pastoral zeal, it distances people from the Lord and does not open doors. So when we take this path… we are not doing good to people, the People of God”. Jesus “instituted seven sacraments, and with this approach we institute the eighth, the sacrament of the pastoral customs office”.
You may read the rest of what he said about this here: w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/cotidie/2013/documents/papa-francesco-cotidie_20130525_christian-acceptance.html

 

[Memaw]

These are the words of His Holiness Pope Francis. I think they are quite clear and should need no commentary:
A single mother goes to the parish to ask for Baptism for her child and hears “a Christian” say: “no, you can’t have it, you’re not married”. “Look at this girl who had had the courage to carry her pregnancy to term” and not to have an abortion. “What does she find? A closed door”, as do so many. “This is not good pastoral zeal, it distances people from the Lord and does not open doors. So when we take this path… we are not doing good to people, the People of God”. Jesus “instituted seven sacraments, and with this approach we institute the eighth, the sacrament of the pastoral customs office”.
You may read the rest of what he said about this here: w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/cotidie/2013/documents/papa-francesco-cotidie_20130525_christian-acceptance.html

I don’t think her not being married was ever the problem but if she was sincere about her responsibility to raise her child in the Catholic Faith. I think you as a Deacon or Priest, (can’t remember which), should understand this more than most. It could very well be a great moment to help them on their way to returning back to the practice of their faith. To pat them on their back and send them merrily on their way does not work either. How much do we truly care about the baby and their parents future!! I have known many people that were Baptized Catholic as a baby and never stepped inside a Catholic Church again. In fact my a brother-in-law was just one of them but he was never raised Catholic But he came into the Church after he married my sister. And my niece’s husband, when he wanted to take RCIA and asked his Mom if he had ever been Baptized, he was shocked to find out he had actually been Baptized in a Catholic Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I don’t think her not being married was ever the problem but if she was sincere about her responsibility to raise her child in the Catholic Faith. I think you as a Deacon or Priest, (can’t remember which), should understand this more than most. It could very well be a great moment to help them on their way to returning back to the practice of their faith. To pat them on their back and send them merrily on their way does not work either. How much do we truly care about the baby and their parents future!! I have known many people that were Baptized Catholic as a baby and never stepped inside a Catholic Church again. In fact my a brother-in-law was just one of them but he was never raised Catholic But he came into the Church after he married my sister. And my niece’s husband, when he wanted to take RCIA and asked his Mom if he had ever been Baptized, he was shocked to find out he had actually been Baptized in a Catholic Church. God Bless, Memaw

In a previous post you wrote: “If it is that important for a Godparent to be a practicing Catholic, why not the parents also!!”

In the above post you wrote: “It could very well be a great moment to help them on their way to returning back to the practice of their faith”

So I don’t know what is, actually, the position you are taking.

In any event, the words and example of Pope Francis provide to the clergy the hermeneutics for applying Canon Law and particular law in this matter…and I really do not think that His Holiness could make his thought any clearer or more emphatic.

The point of this thread, which has been quite obfuscated, is that the matter of the parents marital condition is properly the concern of he who has the cura animarum. If a godparent feels that s/he cannot accede to the role for some reason, they should simply decline. They should not, however, act in a way that interposes themselves between the couple, the Church, and the baptism of the child by words or deeds that are injudicious and may, actually, be quite harmful.

 

[Memaw]

In a previous post you wrote: “If it is that important for a Godparent to be a practicing Catholic, why not the parents also!!”

In the above post you wrote: “It could very well be a great moment to help them on their way to returning back to the practice of their faith”

So I don’t know what is, actually, the position you are taking.

In any event, the words and example of Pope Francis provide to the clergy the hermeneutics for applying Canon Law and particular law in this matter…and I really do not think that His Holiness could make his thought any clearer or more emphatic.

The point of this thread, which has been quite obfuscated, is that the matter of the parents marital condition is properly the concern of he who has the cura animarum. If a godparent feels that s/he cannot accede to the role for some reason, they should simply decline. They should not, however, act in a way that interposes themselves between the couple, the Church, and the baptism of the child by words or deeds that are injudicious and may, actually, be quite harmful.

What makes you think that the “Godparent” will automatically do or say something that will be injudicious or harmful. I don’t see anything wrong with what I have previously posted. We are ALL called to help each other. I think it’s called “Spiritual works of MERCY.” A couple years ago, I went to a Baptismal class with my niece and the Deacon that did it just showed an old program from the 80s that only talked of initiation into the Church. I had seen it many times before long ago. He NEVER talked to her about anything except to set a date for the Baptism. No wonder so many do not take the Baptism of their child seriously. Opportunity lost for some

As for my previous posts,
“If it is that important for a Godparent to be a practicing Catholic, why not the parents also!!”
AND
“It could very well be a great moment to help them on their way to returning back to the practice of their faith”
I still agree with both statements!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Don_Ruggero]

What makes you think that the “Godparent” will automatically do or say something that will be injudicious or harmful.

The original poster, with he and/or his wife as the ones being asked to be baptismal sponsors of an infant, are in fact the Godparent in question.

The original poster proposed a very specific scenario concerning the implication of becoming the Godparent(s) to a specific child in a specific circumstance, namely one whose parents were not married in the Church. The potential Godparents were troubled by how to resolve their internal conflict in this situation. They wished to make manifest that they do not endorse the parents marital situation, which led to the interesting discussion at the beginning of the thread about the various implications of trying to achieve that goal.

The original post was, and remains, the scenario I am addressing: this specific unmarried couple, this specific baby, and this specific set of potential Godparents.

Frankly, after more than 30 responses, it seems to me that the very specific purpose and concerns of the original poster have been lost sight of in certain posts.

 

[Elizium23]

Frankly, after more than 30 responses, it seems to me that the very specific purpose and concerns of the original poster have been lost sight of in certain posts.

We like to do that here on Catholic Answers Forums, where jumping to conclusions is an Olympic event. Any time specific situations with very few details are mentioned, we immediately engage in wild speculation and extrapolation. It’s the only proper thing to do on Teh Intarwebs.

 

[Memaw]

The original poster, with he and/or his wife as the ones being asked to be baptismal sponsors of an infant, are in fact the Godparent in question.

The original poster proposed a very specific scenario concerning the implication of becoming the Godparent(s) to a specific child in a specific circumstance, namely one whose parents were not married in the Church. The potential Godparents were troubled by how to resolve their internal conflict in this situation. They wished to make manifest that they do not endorse the parents marital situation, which led to the interesting discussion at the beginning of the thread about the various implications of trying to achieve that goal.

The original post was, and remains, the scenario I am addressing: this specific unmarried couple, this specific baby, and this specific set of potential Godparents.

Frankly, after more than 30 responses, it seems to me that the very specific purpose and concerns of the original poster have been lost sight of in certain posts.

I thought these forums were open for discussion and if so, than a discussion leads to many avenues. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Sunbreak]

The task of Godparents is to be there for the child’s religious upbringing, not to judge the parents. So I think it’s fine to act as the child’s Godparents.

 

[Memaw]

The task of Godparents is to be there for the child’s religious upbringing, not to judge the parents. So I think it’s fine to act as the child’s Godparents.

I don’t think anyone is “judging” the parents or even the situation into which the child is born. BUT it is important to help the parents understand the responsibility they are about to undertake and it IS a serious privilege and responsibility to be a Godparent if we are expected by the Church to assist the parents in the religious upbringing of the child. How in the world can we do that without knowing where the parents stand on their responsibility. I think in many cases the priest, deacon or instructor is missing a good opportunity to instruct the parents. I am a Godmother to to many children that weren’t raised in their faith and some have never even made their First Communion. Like I said, to shuffle them thru, pat them on the back on their way is NOT doing it. I think the Church has a greater responsibility than that. God Bless, Memaw