Infant Baptism

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Grace Angel:
I can go with everything you said, even the analogy, but how do children in herit this flaw in their nature?
By being conceived. Adam damaged our nature, so whenever a new being with that nature comes into existence, that being has the same defect because the “template of the progenitor” was damaged at the level of nature.
Grace Angel:
Remember the parents who have been baptized had that flaw corrected, so if there is no flaw in the parents where does it come from?
The flaw is not corrected. There are many consequences of Original Sin, the gravest being that we are born without Sanctifying Grace (and without Sanctifying Grace we cannot go to Heaven). Baptism corrects the loss of Sanctifying Grace but does nothing to the other consequences: we still have concupiscence, a darkened intellect, a weakened will, and venerability to disease and death which are all consequences of Original Sin.
 
By being conceived. Adam damaged our nature, so whenever a new being with that nature comes into existence, that being has the same defect because the “template of the progenitor” was damaged at the level of nature.

The flaw is not corrected. There are many consequences of Original Sin, the gravest being that we are born without Sanctifying Grace (and without Sanctifying Grace we cannot go to Heaven). Baptism corrects the loss of Sanctifying Grace but does nothing to the other consequences: we still have concupiscence, a darkened intellect, a weakened will, and venerability to disease and death which are all consequences of Original Sin.
An infant has none of the above mentioned these develop in time. In infant which dies in the womb cannot do much with the above mention ed. And if nature itself is flawed where does this flaw come from. Remembering that the parents may be in mortal sin, but not in original sin.
The parents of the infant pass on their “human nature” which has been cleanesed of original sin through their baptism. So where does this suspended O/S come from?
I am asking questions, and I am struggling.
Grace Angel.
 
I think Andreas explained this pretty well. Basically the analogy is that of a genetic trait. The example of poor eye-sight is a good one. The genetic marker for this is there upon conception and is passed on from one generation to the next regardless of whether or not the parents have had corrective surgery and now have good eye-sight. It’s a flaw that can be corrected but will still be genetically passed on to future generations.

Let’s see. We could look at it from my orthodontists view too. My husband and I had crooked teeth, wore braces for awhile and now our teeth look perfect (or at least waaaaaaaay better than they did). You wouldn’t know that I have the crooked teeth gene. That said, I’ve got 3 kids with crooked teeth looking at years of orthodontics. My “cure” didn’t fix their teeth because the gene is still there.

Thanks to Adam and Eve, we now have a permanent “genetic trait” passed onto all of us. BTW, while the sin is washed away, we refer to the “stain” of original sin. Basically, its effects are still there like a stain.

newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.
 
rciadan, I am not suggesting heresy or heretical thinking, I am asking a simple question which I had hoped someone with loads of theological training could answer with some thoughtfulness.
Grace Angel.
I know that and would never suggest otherwise. I’ve read too many of your posts. I said it could lead tonot that it was. I was merely saying that we have foundation of known truth which we need to stay upon as we build this train of thought. I apologise profusely for having made you think I was accusing you of heresy in any way. It was not my intention.

First we know directly from doctrine that all are conceived with the stain of original sin. All other thought must reconcile to this truth or be laid aside as wrong thinking. Would all agree with this statement?
 
I think Andreas explained this pretty well. Basically the analogy is that of a genetic trait. The example of poor eye-sight is a good one. The genetic marker for this is there upon conception and is passed on from one generation to the next regardless of whether or not the parents have had corrective surgery and now have good eye-sight. It’s a flaw that can be corrected but will still be genetically passed on to future generations.

Let’s see. We could look at it from my orthodontists view too. My husband and I had crooked teeth, wore braces for awhile and now our teeth look perfect (or at least waaaaaaaay better than they did). You wouldn’t know that I have the crooked teeth gene. That said, I’ve got 3 kids with crooked teeth looking at years of orthodontics. My “cure” didn’t fix their teeth because the gene is still there.

Thanks to Adam and Eve, we now have a permanent “genetic trait” passed onto all of us. BTW, while the sin is washed away, we refer to the “stain” of original sin. Basically, its effects are still there like a stain.

newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
Bear I understand what you are saying and what the other posters are saying, but if the gen etic flaw was removed from the parents at their baptism (assuming both are baptised) then the flaw has been removed permanently, so how can this flaw (o/s) be transferred to the new offspring of these two parents who do not have the flaw. their dna has been cleaned up o/s through their baptism. Can you see what I am trying to say? Where does this permanent genetic trait come from if the genetic trait of the parents was removed at their baptism.
Grace Angel.
 
Bear I understand what you are saying and what the other posters are saying, but if the gen etic flaw was removed from the parents at their baptism (assuming both are baptised) then the flaw has been removed permanently, so how can this flaw (o/s) be transferred to the new offspring of these two parents who do not have the flaw. their dna has been cleaned up o/s through their baptism. Can you see what I am trying to say? Where does this permanent genetic trait come from if the genetic trait of the parents was removed at their baptism.
Grace Angel.
Maybe it is more like, no matter what your parents do, the “flaw” is inherited not from them but from your grandparents of great-grandparents, excxept that in this case the grandparents we are referring to are Adam and Eve. Like a trait or problem that sometimes “skips” a generation, except in this case none are skipped, no not one. Make any sense?
 
Maybe it is more like, no matter what your parents do, the “flaw” is inherited not from them but from your grandparents of great-grandparents, excxept that in this case the grandparents we are referring to are Adam and Eve. Like a trait or problem that sometimes “skips” a generation, except in this case none are skipped, no not one. Make any sense?
Respectfully rciadan it doesnt make sense at all we seem to be stretching the bow a quite a bit.
Look I am not saying that I am going to stop believing in my church RCC, but its a thought that seriously intrigues me and I would like to study it further but for a time cannot do it. Maybe some time in futre.
Goodnite from oz.
Graceangel.
 
Much discussion has gone one over the past few days about Limbo and infant Baptism. I personally hope and believe that infants who die before Baptism are with God. Others disagree.
Today I had a “lightbulb” moment. Can someone help please?
If both parents of an infant are baptised Catholics/Christians and therefore free from original sin, how can the newly conceived child inherit from them origial sin? They through their baptism have been freed and if both parents are freed then they cannot transmit O/S to the child.
This then leaves Baptism as an initiating sacrament, and necessary to enter into the household of God, but not necessarily having original sin. From where does the child get O/S if parents have been freed from it?
Thanks for answers.
Grace Angel.
Traditionally, original sin comes primarily from St Augustine, who tried to understand how evil exists in the world, and despite so many opportunities to choose what is good, true and beautiful, humans instead make disordered choices towards the evil, the false, and the ugly. To some extent this problem was well understood by Greek Philosophers before him, though they tended (following Plato) to explain evil in terms of the immaterial and immortal soul ‘falling’ into the realm of matter, and needing to be ‘freed’ from its bodily prison to re-ascend to the world of Forms and the highest reality Platonists called ‘The Good’ or ‘The One.’

St Augustine though, could not accept either the fall from the soul from a pre-existing realm into matter as the solution to evil, not could he accept the Manichean belief that the universe was somehow the product of warring supernatural forces. Nor could Augustine accept on the Biblical claim that all God made was ‘good’ that the world itself was somehow evil.

Augustine then laid the source of evil in human free choice. To explain why evil seems so common in the world in which he lived, Augustine traced the root of human evil to the choice to disobey God by Adam and Eve back in the Garden. This had already been used by Fathers before Augustine, though the Greek Fathers tended to see the fall as a loss of the possibility of life in and with God, and hence the consequence of sin was the spreading of death and corruption into human nature, as well as the ‘infection’ of human being with nothingness and a gravity towards death and unbecoming, while Latins including Augustine saw the fall more in terms of disobedience to divine law and God’s punishment (through death, imputed guilt and divine punishment) which was only properly dealt with by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which atones for human sin, removes guilt from humanity, and justifies sinful humans baptised in Christ before God.

The doctrine of original sin implied that all human beings not incorporated into Christ were in a state of sin before God and were hence bound to suffer the ongoing consequences of sin, including death, corruption, and damnation. Eastern Christianity tended to stress more death and corruption, while Latin Christianity focused more on damnation. This is particularly the case in the work of St Anselm and medieval theologians, who were very ‘logical’ about how God gave or refused grace according to who or who is not justified in rather legal terms.

In more recent times, the Church has tended to stress more the mercy of God as well as the idea of deifying grace, which is very strong in Eastern Christianity, to balance the focus on judgement and guilt which comes from the Western tradition of the Church. Pope Benedict seems to be indicating that the idea that infants who are not baptised will go to hell will not be official church doctrine, though some conservatives might feel it should remain so. From my own viewpoint, I would like to see this idea go and be replaced with the doctrine Eastern Christianity has; infants are baptised so they can participate as soon as possible in the life of God.

While baptism of parents may remove sin from the baptised parent and infuse them with deifying grace, without baptism this process cannot occur, at least in terms the Church knows; as the Catechism says, 'The Church knows of no other way of salvation but that through baptism, but God’s mercy is not entirely bound by the sacrament (so other means may be possible) and it also states that infant baptism is a ‘priceless grace that cannot be refused’ yet we should ‘entrust the fate of the unbaptised to God’s mercy.’ Baptism then should not solely be seen just as a legal procedure to buy God’s justification for the sinner, but also as a precious gift the infant is given to be united intimately with Christ and hence in the Trinitarian life itself.
 
We should also take care in the doctrine of original sin to not see original sin as something which makes human nature intrinsically evil. Sin is not an evil in human nature, it is an inherited weakness which makes our will choose wrong objects or ends in a disordered fashion. We shouldn’t see sin as something which makes some part of our being evil (or our physical being such as DNA flawed), rather, it should be seen as a spiritual ‘virus’ or sickness which infects each human being and wounds our spiritual heart, and that is what is cured in baptism and the other sacraments and God’s grace, along with a good life. Human nature is not intrinsically evil, as it was made good by God and even if a sinner lacks sanctifying grace, the sinner still has grace in the form God still sustains and maintains his being and gives him or her the chance to repent and turn back to God’s mercy, right up until the point of death (as the parable of the Prodigal son reminds us in the Gospel of Luke).

God is a mystery in which perfect and infinite love, mercy and justice all coincide in perfect and beautiful harmony. God’s justice and wrath against sinners or sinful humankind can’t be understood apart from his infinite love and mercy, which is shown in Christ. In some way God’s judgement upon each human being at death, including on the unbaptised, will perfectly combine all these so no injustice is done to the person judged in terms of God’s perfect justice.
 
Bear I understand what you are saying and what the other posters are saying, but if the gen etic flaw was removed from the parents at their baptism (assuming both are baptised) then the flaw has been removed permanently, so how can this flaw (o/s) be transferred to the new offspring of these two parents who do not have the flaw. their dna has been cleaned up o/s through their baptism. Can you see what I am trying to say? Where does this permanent genetic trait come from if the genetic trait of the parents was removed at their baptism.
Grace Angel.
Perhaps we should just pass on to another analogy, because this seems to be the sticking point for you that you have not been able to read correctly from our explanations. In baptism, a particular effect of Original Sin (by which we really mean the fallen nature we inherit) has been remedied - sanctifying grace is restored - but our nature remains fallen. Baptism does not remove the full distortion of human nature effected by Adam’s sin, so the “genetic flaw,” as we’ve been calling it, is not removed from the parents. Its effects have simply been canceled out through other means.
 
From the Council of Trent’s Decree Concerning Original Sin (history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05.html):
If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, –let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Thus is the solemn teaching of the Church. We’re bound to believe it even if we don’t understand it. If we don’t understand it and want to, and we earnestly pray to God to understand this truth in order that by understanding we can render Him greater honor and glory, we just might get the grace we seek.
 
Thanks for the anathema, parvenu74, but if you actually read GraceAngels posts, she doesn’t say that she’s rejecting the teaching at all. She’s trying to understand it. :whacky:

GA, I think you’ll have to resort to the “God’s outside of time” explanation. Adam and Eve took their Starbuck’s Mocha, threw it up in the air and it hit all of us at the same time whether we physically existed or not (remembering that everything is current for God). We all have it washed at baptism but their is still a residual stain that we can’t get rid of which is why I’ll probably lose my temper with my children today.🤷
 
Traditionally, original sin comes primarily from St Augustine, who tried to understand how evil exists in the world, and despite so many opportunities to choose what is good, true and beautiful, humans instead make disordered choices towards the evil, the false, and the ugly. To some extent this problem was well understood by Greek Philosophers before him, though they tended (following Plato) to explain evil in terms of the immaterial and immortal soul ‘falling’ into the realm of matter, and needing to be ‘freed’ from its bodily prison to re-ascend to the world of Forms and the highest reality Platonists called ‘The Good’ or ‘The One.’

St Augustine though, could not accept either the fall from the soul from a pre-existing realm into matter as the solution to evil, not could he accept the Manichean belief that the universe was somehow the product of warring supernatural forces. Nor could Augustine accept on the Biblical claim that all God made was ‘good’ that the world itself was somehow evil.

Augustine then laid the source of evil in human free choice. To explain why evil seems so common in the world in which he lived, Augustine traced the root of human evil to the choice to disobey God by Adam and Eve back in the Garden. This had already been used by Fathers before Augustine, though the Greek Fathers tended to see the fall as a loss of the possibility of life in and with God, and hence the consequence of sin was the spreading of death and corruption into human nature, as well as the ‘infection’ of human being with nothingness and a gravity towards death and unbecoming, while Latins including Augustine saw the fall more in terms of disobedience to divine law and God’s punishment (through death, imputed guilt and divine punishment) which was only properly dealt with by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which atones for human sin, removes guilt from humanity, and justifies sinful humans baptised in Christ before God.

The doctrine of original sin implied that all human beings not incorporated into Christ were in a state of sin before God and were hence bound to suffer the ongoing consequences of sin, including death, corruption, and damnation. Eastern Christianity tended to stress more death and corruption, while Latin Christianity focused more on damnation. This is particularly the case in the work of St Anselm and medieval theologians, who were very ‘logical’ about how God gave or refused grace according to who or who is not justified in rather legal terms.

In more recent times, the Church has tended to stress more the mercy of God as well as the idea of deifying grace, which is very strong in Eastern Christianity, to balance the focus on judgement and guilt which comes from the Western tradition of the Church. Pope Benedict seems to be indicating that the idea that infants who are not baptised will go to hell will not be official church doctrine, though some conservatives might feel it should remain so. From my own viewpoint, I would like to see this idea go and be replaced with the doctrine Eastern Christianity has; infants are baptised so they can participate as soon as possible in the life of God.

While baptism of parents may remove sin from the baptised parent and infuse them with deifying grace, without baptism this process cannot occur, at least in terms the Church knows; as the Catechism says, 'The Church knows of no other way of salvation but that through baptism, but God’s mercy is not entirely bound by the sacrament (so other means may be possible) and it also states that infant baptism is a ‘priceless grace that cannot be refused’ yet we should ‘entrust the fate of the unbaptised to God’s mercy.’ Baptism then should not solely be seen just as a legal procedure to buy God’s justification for the sinner, but also as a precious gift the infant is given to be united intimately with Christ and hence in the Trinitarian life itself.
Thank you Greg I have only just got home from work and am exhausted started at 6am, so I wont respond till maybe tomorrow, But If I forget I thank you immensely for the trouble you took to write this for me. I will save it and digest it at leisure.
I Like you also think that Baptism primarily should be the sacrament extraordinaire for induction or introduction or initiation into the household and life of God rather than O/S.
It makes perfect sense to me that one. But one thing I do want to do is be obedient to my church.
Sorry I am tired.
God Bless
Grace Angel.
 
The more that we mull this one over, the more I think that our need to see things in time-line form is the stumbling block here.
 
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