Infant Baptism

[iharden2]

I have a good friend who is a “born again” Christian. She has just had a baby and does not want to have it baptised. She said if I could show her a passage in the Bible that says babies should be baptised she would go ahead. Do you know if there is such a passage?

 

[banjo]

I have a good friend who is a “born again” Christian. She has just had a baby and does not want to have it baptised. She said if I could show her a passage in the Bible that says babies should be baptised she would go ahead. Do you know if there is such a passage?

“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so sin spread to all men because all men sinned-sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” Romans 5:12-14

Death is the consequence of sin. Yet sin is not counted where there is no law (i.e., from Adam to Moses). This being the case, why did people in that time period experience death? Sin was not counted. Why did children who had not yet reached the age of reason die if death is the consequence of sin? In both cases the answer is original sin.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Why doesn’t she want it baptized?

 

[teachccd]

I have a good friend who is a “born again” Christian. She has just had a baby and does not want to have it baptised. She said if I could show her a passage in the Bible that says babies should be baptised she would go ahead. Do you know if there is such a passage?

Ask her where it says in the Bible that you must " Accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" and then say the “Sinners Prayer” and then you will follow her tenets of faith. Also you might ask her to show you a passage in the Bible that says that we shouldn’t baptize babies. Jesus said, “Let the children come to me”. These fundamentalist Christians should really open their eyes to the truth. Show her where Jesus explicitly says, “This is my Body” and his discourse in John Chapter 6 regarding the eating of His body. Funny how this all of a sudden isn’t biblical when it is downright explicit. Good luck, my friend. I’ve had many a discussion and you just have to stay the course and continue your studies. It made me a better Catholic and I thank God for them just for that reason. And we can plant seeds…God Bless…teachccd

And have her read Acts Chapter 16 where scripture states that whole households were baptized. Does she think that they sold the infants prior to the baptism??

 

[Pax]

Give your friend the following passages:

Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it.
But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in
baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (i.e.,baptism replaces circumcision and children were circumcised as infants)

Scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

Luke 1 :15
The angel Gabriel says that John the Baptist , “even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

LUKE 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

 

[ryanoneil]

Here is a part of a document I downloaded called “Infant Baptism” by by Steve Ray.

During the first years, the members of the Church were exclusively Jewish. The Jews practiced infant circumcision, as mandated to Abraham (Gn 17:12), reaffirmed in the Mosaic Law (Lv 12:3), and demonstrated by the circumcision of Jesus on his eighth day (Lu 2:21). Without circumcision no male was allowed to participate in the cultural and religious life of Israel.

The rite of circumcision as the doorway into the Old Covenant was replaced in the New Covenant with the rite of Baptism-both applied to infants. St. Paul makes this correlation: “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism” (Co 2:11-12). The Catechism informs us that “this sign [of circumcision] prefigures that ‘circumcision of Christ’ which is Baptism” (CCC no. 527).

When Peter preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost he was speaking to a Jewish audience (Ac 2:5-35). Peter announced, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children” (Ac 2:38-39). The Jews would have been dismayed had the New Covenant not included their children, especially since it was promised to them, and the New Covenant was to be an improvement over the Old in which they were included.

 

[fellowChristian]

Acts 2

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39"**For the promise is for you and your children **and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

The Old Covenant included children, they were to be circumcised at eight days of age.

In the New Covenant circumcision is replaced by baptism and still includes children.

Scripture Catholic—Infant Baptism in Scripture

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-III

Catholic Answers----Infant Baptism

catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

NewAdvent—Infant Baptism

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

The Catechism of the Catholic Church ------ Baptism

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1

 

[RyanL]

“In the beginning…”

It is right to start with Genesis. God has known His plan for salvation from all eternity, and from the beginning of our history He has worked to prepare us. As has been said, “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed!”

Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Water and Spirit. A new creation. God is immutable - He does not change.

And after the fall, the world fell into sin. The sin was so monstrous, it filled heaven with its stench. God decided to flood the earth, but save 8 of His chosen people in the Ark. He would make of the earth a new creation, and this through the water. As a sign that His recreative work was complete, the Bible tells us the following:

Gen 8:11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

A dove. The Holy Spirit - Luke 3:22. Water and Spirit.

When we were in captivity in Egypt, the Lord brought us out. He released us from the bondage of our captors. When He did so, He led us through the Red Sea. He parted the waters for us, and we passed through them to freedom:

From Exo 13:17-22: By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night

There it is again – Spirit and water. A pillar of fire, like unto the fire of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:2-4, also Luke 3:16). A pillar of cloud, like unto the Shekina Glory Cloud of the Holy Spirit (Exo 16:10, Exo 24:16, 1 Kings 8:11, 2 Chronicles 5:14).

And when our Lord was Baptized, again He showed us:

Luke 3:21-22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove…

Water and Spirit. He makes all things new. His baptism wasn’t merely spiritual – He showed us by example that water was required. In response to the question of how to be born again, Jesus responded:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Water and Spirit. That’s the way God works. That’s the way He has worked throughout all of salvation history. It is no surprise, then, that we read the following:

John 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?”

Jesus could ask that because God has worked throughout history to prepare us for the mystery of Baptism. Water and Spirit. A teacher familiar with the history of God’s Chosen People should realize that. A teacher familiar with Ezekial should realize that:

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

…cont’d…

 

[RyanL]

…cont’d…

Water and Spirit. God does not change, and He has been preparing us for Baptism from the start. Cleansing, and making us anew…reborn, of water and Spirit. This is prophesy, and this is the word of God.

1 Pet 3:20-22: …in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Regarding infants, I would first look to the Old Testament. The New Testament is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed…as they say.

The OT covenants are how God prepared us for the NT covenant. Again, this should not be a contentious point. And how was one joined to the OT covenant, becoming children of Abraham? Through circumcision.

Lev 12:3: On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

That’s right. Babies were circumcised, and became full members of the OT covenant before they could believe. God honored that. God commanded that.

In Baptism, we become children of Abraham, partakers of his covenant, through the new covenant of Jesus the Christ. Gal 3:6-9; Rom 11:17-24; Rom. 4:16; Eph 2:11-13; Eph 3:3-6; Rom 2:28-29; 1 Peter 2:9; Gal 6:16; Phil 3:2-3.

Gal 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were **baptized **into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, if you believe the Bible (which I do), the following statement should be highly illustrative:

Col 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

There you go. Baptism is the new circumcision. Since Paul was speaking to a Jewish audience, and since the Jews knew that God commanded circumcision for babies, one would expect St. Paul to give a direct prohibition on the practice if one was intended; such a prohibition is never given. If St. Paul didn’t mean to include infant Baptism, he wouldn’t have drawn the parallel in the first place.

OBJECTION: But doesn’t the Bible show people coming to faith before Baptism?

RESPONSE: Well, yeah, it does. So? Abraham came to faith before circumcision, as do all Jewish converts. In the NT, we are shown converts. We’re not shown the lives of Cradle Christians. When they are mentioned by inference (i.e., not explicitly), we seem to be shown that these Cradle Catholics were Baptized - Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor 1:16. The fact remains that this promise was for Christians and for their children. Acts 2:39.

Hope that helps.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Pax]

Nicely done Ryan.

I would add only the following passage which out to drive the last nail in the coffin of the teachintg against the baptism of infants.

Paul says the following in 1 Corintians 10:1-4

“I WANT you to know, brethren, that **our fathers **were **all **under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and **all **ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The number of Israelites that left Egypt in Exodus is described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

It is obvious from this account and Paul’s reference to passing through the Red Sea and baptism that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children.

 

[Crumpy]

Here is a part of a document I downloaded called “Infant Baptism” by by Steve Ray.

During the first years, the members of the Church were exclusively Jewish. The Jews practiced infant circumcision, as mandated to Abraham (Gn 17:12), reaffirmed in the Mosaic Law (Lv 12:3), and demonstrated by the circumcision of Jesus on his eighth day (Lu 2:21). Without circumcision no male was allowed to participate in the cultural and religious life of Israel.

The rite of circumcision as the doorway into the Old Covenant was replaced in the New Covenant with the rite of Baptism-both applied to infants. St. Paul makes this correlation: “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism” (Co 2:11-12). The Catechism informs us that “this sign [of circumcision] prefigures that ‘circumcision of Christ’ which is Baptism” (CCC no. 527).

When Peter preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost he was speaking to a Jewish audience (Ac 2:5-35). Peter announced, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children” (Ac 2:38-39). The Jews would have been dismayed had the New Covenant not included their children, especially since it was promised to them, and the New Covenant was to be an improvement over the Old in which they were included.

I think this is well-stated, because the infant boys were not consulted before the circumcision was performed. I think the OP should download the Didache from the EWTN website and look it over, too. It’s not too long.

The OP is arguing and debating with someone who also doesn’t believe in Baptism is a sacrament as Catholics do, in which the action effects what is symbolized.

Her friend may point out that Jesus was circumcised as an infant, yet ‘baptized’ as an adult. Jesus has not yet given the command for baptism.

 

[ryanoneil]

Give your friend the following passages:

Infant Baptism

Scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

Entire House holds being baptised.

Acts 11:13
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:31
Acts 18:8

The reason you wont find a reference to an infant only baptism is because the children’s parents weren’t even baptized yet. So, we see whole household, including infants, baptized instead.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[tabcom]

Do infants really need to be baptized?

IMHO, NO.

What was the baptism of John?

The Baptism of Repentance (MARK 1:4, LUKE 3:3).

Only sinners are in need of repenting.

What is sin?

1John 2:1 -

My children,  I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin.

1 John 2:16

For all that is in the world, sensual lust,  enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.

Conclusion:

Until an infant develops an ego (greek for I), it cannot sin.

Specifically, an infant does not lust for what it sees, it does not lust for things to make it feel good, nor can it feel pride.

 

[tabcom]

Give your friend the following passages:

Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it.
But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

This is a curious citation . . .

Matthew 19:13-14

The orginial Greek text uses the word paidion which means little boys and girls.

Luke 18:15-16

In the original greek text,
‘infants’, or brephos in the greek, is used in the first instance.

‘little children’, or paidion, is used in the second.

Although there are two different words used to describe who was seeking Jesus, there is no confusion as to whom Jesus blessed.

Jesus commands the ‘little children’ be brought forward in both the Matthew and Luke accounts. Why doesn’t Jesus command the infants to come forward?

It is my opinion that Jesus did not call forward the infants because they were without sin.

 

[tabcom]

Entire House holds being baptised.

Acts 11:13
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:31
Acts 18:8

The reason you wont find a reference to an infant only baptism is because the children’s parents weren’t even baptized yet. So, we see whole household, including infants, baptized instead.

Vague assumptions such as this fails to answer the OP question.

 

[BlestOne]

This is a curious citation . . .

Matthew 19:13-14

The orginial Greek text uses the word paidion which means little boys and girls.

Luke 18:15-16

In the original greek text,
‘infants’, or brephos in the greek, is used in the first instance.

‘little children’, or paidion, is used in the second.

Although there are two different words used to describe who was seeking Jesus, there is no confusion as to whom Jesus blessed.

Jesus commands the ‘little children’ be brought forward in both the Matthew and Luke accounts. Why doesn’t Jesus command the infants to come forward?

It is my opinion that Jesus did not call forward the infants because they were without sin. Or maybe because they couldn’t come forward on their own until they could walk? Either way… Jesus blesses the infants and children and tells others not to stop them… and he also commands his apostles to do as he does…hmmmmm…

OK all joking aside… God made covenants… covenants covered all family members in all generations… So why would Jesus do any less? Remember, Jesus opened salvation for all people not just the Jews.

Tabcom, I have a question for you… Do you have any children? The reason I ask is because once you have children you learn how much you can love another human being… to death if necessary. As a parent you would do anything for your child and their salvation. In the bible it does say that baptism is necessary to our salvation right? So since none of us knows when we will be called home, don’t you think it would be wise to have a child baptized? No they can’t sin… but they can receive grace to help them avoid sin from the sacrament, so why not have them baptized?

 

[tabcom]

Tabcom, I have a question for you… Do you have any children?

My wife is expecting our first in 4 months.

As a parent you would do anything for your child and their salvation.

The problem with this reasoning is that a parent cannot advocate a babies guilt or innocence before God.

2 Corinthians 5: 10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

 

[BlestOne]

My wife is expecting our first in 4 months.
The problem with this reasoning is that a parent cannot advocate a babies guilt or innocence before God.

2 Corinthians 5: 10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

No, a parent can’t but they do hold the responsibility to the child and to God to teach them and until they are an adult, yes their salvation is a parents number one concern… You will see…

 

[tabcom]

“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so sin spread to all men because all men sinned-sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” Romans 5:12-14

Death is the consequence of sin. Yet sin is not counted where there is no law (i.e., from Adam to Moses). This being the case, why did people in that time period experience death? Sin was not counted. Why did children who had not yet reached the age of reason die if death is the consequence of sin? In both cases the answer is original sin.

Does Romans 5:12-14 say that death came to men because they inherited sin? Or does it says death comes to men because they all actively commit sin?

Also, Jesus commanded “Go and preach the gospel and baptize.” Peter said, “Repent and be baptized.” Does an infant have the mental capacity to receive the gospel and repent of their sins?

 

[tabcom]

Give your friend the following passages:

Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

This citation betrays your infant baptism argument. The complete verse reads . . .

Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Assuming for a moment that Jesus is calling forth infants (although that is not what the original greek text says), for whom does the kingdom of heaven belong to?

Infants.