P
Pax
Guest
Jesus personally instituted baptism and its purpose is made clear in scripture. No verse in scripture does away with baptism. That is something quite obvious and that is why Christians still baptize today.
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P
Pax
Guest
Here are all the passages from the NT:
MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead
EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 10:22
let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Finally, here is the OT passage of Baptism prefigured:
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a **new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ** I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were **cut to the heart **and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "**Repent, and be baptized **every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now after all of this do you really think it is reasonable to argue that the verse you have chosen has somehow done away with baptism? Or is it more reasonable to believe that our understanding of baptism replacing circumcision is the right interpretation?
MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.
ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead
EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 10:22
let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Finally, here is the OT passage of Baptism prefigured:
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a **new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ** I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were **cut to the heart **and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "**Repent, and be baptized **every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now after all of this do you really think it is reasonable to argue that the verse you have chosen has somehow done away with baptism? Or is it more reasonable to believe that our understanding of baptism replacing circumcision is the right interpretation?
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tabcom
Guest
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ash0001
Guest
I think baptism is meant to be something spiritual. Just as scripture says, “The true worshippers will worship in spirit and in truth.” When John the Baptist baptized he baptized with water, but he said that one would come after him who would baptize with the holy spirit and with fire. Now this could be referring to the time at the end of the age when our deeds outside of God’s grace will be burned, and what is good will be refined like precious metals, but I think that is taking scripture out of context.
Since we don’t ever have any disputes over whether fire baptism should be by immersion or whether we should just sprinkle a little magma on the person, I think I can assume that what John the baptist was saying is that baptism is spiritual far more than it is physical.
The importance is on the cleansing of sins. Which is by the grace if the atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as a propitiation [something that satisfies a judge] for our sins.
If one’s argument that the sins of this world, which are spiritual, are cleansed by the systematic placement of H2O, tangent to a recipients skin in specific circumstance, then I say that is a little odd that the physical can atone for the spiritual.
Does not the heart matter more? Do not the questions of “Are we repentant?” or “Is Christ our Lord?” or “Do we believe in him and trust in his name?” matter so much more?
Since we don’t ever have any disputes over whether fire baptism should be by immersion or whether we should just sprinkle a little magma on the person, I think I can assume that what John the baptist was saying is that baptism is spiritual far more than it is physical.
The importance is on the cleansing of sins. Which is by the grace if the atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as a propitiation [something that satisfies a judge] for our sins.
If one’s argument that the sins of this world, which are spiritual, are cleansed by the systematic placement of H2O, tangent to a recipients skin in specific circumstance, then I say that is a little odd that the physical can atone for the spiritual.
Does not the heart matter more? Do not the questions of “Are we repentant?” or “Is Christ our Lord?” or “Do we believe in him and trust in his name?” matter so much more?
R
ryanoneil
Guest
Colossians 2:9-15 speaks of all baptism (not just infants) and the bond with the legal claims is the law that was impossibe to follow, and that could not save them. (see also Eph 2:15) This does not refer to rituals what so ever. Paul specifically mentions the ritual of baptism in relation to circumcision.
Why would he talk about a ritual if they were a thing of the past?
In 1 Cor 1:17 Paul says no such thing. He says this because some Corinthians were paying special allegiance to the individuals who initiated them into the community. They had a false image of the apostles who preached to them and of the Christian message itself. He mentions baptism in verse 15 because then they might have further divisions regarding him.
His specific mission is to deal with the divisions and abuses in the community. (not to baptize) In other words, he is telling the Corinthians that they have twisted the teachings of whoever baptised them, and he is going to set them straight, and deal with their problems. Read the last line of the verse, (and the entire book where he has to deal with their problems), for the proper understanding, “so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.”
He wouldn’t even think of baptizing the people because they didn’t even understand basic Christianity.
Peace,
Ryan
P
Pax
Guest
Faith and salvation are gifts of God by way of grace. No one, child or otherwise, can provide the eternal atonement for their sins. This is precisely why children can be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and the remission of original sin.
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Pax
Guest
I disagree…if you have read and studied all of these verses and appreciated what they actually say concerning baptism, it would be impossible for you to draw the conclusions you have from Col 2:14.
You have taken one verse which you have misunderstood, and have attempted to undo the meaning and intent of all of the passages that I quoted from the NT. So far you have not demonstrated why you or anyone else would do something that unreasonable. I may sound a bit blunt in all of this, but please take it in good faith that I do not mean to sound at all uncharitable. I simply do not understand how you can take the available data and come to your espoused conclusions.
The things that I would add to the list that you’ve started is essentially the list of NT verses that I provided. They agree with Catholic teaching on baptism and they call into question your views of baptism being a simple ordinance that has been dispensed with. Moreover, please stick with the terminology of scripture and of Catholic teaching as you would find it in the Catechism. I find your terminology to be potentially problematic. Thus far my posts and terminology contained therein might also be a good place to start.
If I seem to be over complicating things or you don’t care for the way I have answered, then I would suggest that you start with your list and we can proceed from there. That will work for me because things can be adjusted, if necessary, as we go.
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Bishopite
Guest
Yes, I see your difficulty. What Genesis 5:3 shows though, is that Seth (Adams son) inherited Adams sinful (fallen) nature which shows evidence that all successive generations also inherit which means babies are born with a mark of sin upon them. And since baptism washes away original sin et al sin, (which Col 2:11-12 says) and brings us into the covanent family of God like circumcision did, then it is actually logical to baptize infants. The early church baptized infants and they were the generations that followed the Apostles (who followed Jesus) and no opposition was ever cast over baptizing babies. It wasn’t until the anabaptists of the Reformation that padeobaptism was stopped. In fact, many Protestant Christian groups baptize infants. I have a good friend who is a Reformed Pastor, he baptizes infants as did Luther and Calvin.
says the ordinances are nailed to the cross – meaning the rituals are done away with. It is spiritual now.
No, the word rite comes from the word rituals. Romans 14 is a chapter which speaks of “rites” within the Church. Rites are not done away with at all. And baptism isn’t an ordinance it is a sacrament which means a mystery.
And the context of Colossians 2 is not found in verse 14. Verse 14 is speaking of the legal claims of circumcision which was part of the ceremonial aspect of the law which IS a legal claim. The Pharisees demanded that God owed them salvation because they circumcised kept the Sabbath (even though they really didn’t) dietary restrictions. They essentially put their hands out and demanded God give them salvation which was a legal claim to God.
Paul is saying that you are not merely circumcised by human hands but are baptized into Christ which takes away all sin; your transgressions were done away with. Paul is saying that baptism does what circumcision did (brought those into the covanent family of God) but is does MUCH more, it included everyone and wipes away ALL transgressions.
Well, we can’t just clip out a section of scripture and say that this makes it more important than other verses per se for scripture also says in Mark 16:16 that “you must believe and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin.” And many other verses also include baptism along with faith which is what Catholicism (and other Chirstian groups) do too.
Baptism is the initial justification of a persons salvation because it gives the child grace which helps us in the salvation process.
And remember Jesus said that in order to be “born again” a person must be born of “water and the Spirit” which means the unitive act of the Holy Spirit entering the Child (or adult) by the visible sign (water). We know this because Jesus was baptized in the book of John and the Spirit came down like a dove which shows us that the Holy Spirit enters us in baptism.
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ash0001
Guest
The definition of a biblical mystery is something that is not understood but will be revealed at a later time. If baptism is a mystery then this conversation is foolish.
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
2Ti 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene.
2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness.
If baptism is indeed, a mystery, then it is something that we are ignorant about the truth behind it, for the truth behind it will be revealed later. This then fits the definition of an ignorant controversy.
I do not think anyone is here with an open mind. This conversation seems to be an “I believe this” vs “well I believe this.” If no one here is open to reason then we have reached the stage of a foolish, ignorant controversy, which certainly is breeding quarrels.
I’m not really arguing anything… I don’t really have my mind made up on all of this, but it’s clear to me if I had a disagreement with any of you, the only way the disagreement would be settled is if I believed exactly as you did. I think I am exagerating, but it’s a thought.
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tabcom
Guest
Off topic . . .
Added for clarification . . . .
The mystery of God is the Church.
Rev 1:20 -
"As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Rev 10:7 -
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God (the Church) is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
Yes, indeed. My purpose in participating on this Forum is to better understand what Roman Catholics believe.
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tabcom
Guest
Bishopite . . .
After over 500 posts on this forum, I’ve gained the wisdom to know when to stop repeating myself with someone.
I’ve started listing my reasons why I disagree with you that the ritual of water baptism is of no spiritual value to an infant within the body of this post, but then I said to myself there is no point in repeating them. An advance search on tabcom AND baptism will return much, much more on my thoughts on baptism.
You have failed to persuade me otherwise. I’ve failed to persuade you to my belief.
As for the several hundred lurkers to this thread – who knows.
There really isn’t anything new for me to add to this topic of infant baptism.
After over 500 posts on this forum, I’ve gained the wisdom to know when to stop repeating myself with someone.
I’ve started listing my reasons why I disagree with you that the ritual of water baptism is of no spiritual value to an infant within the body of this post, but then I said to myself there is no point in repeating them. An advance search on tabcom AND baptism will return much, much more on my thoughts on baptism.
You have failed to persuade me otherwise. I’ve failed to persuade you to my belief.
As for the several hundred lurkers to this thread – who knows.
There really isn’t anything new for me to add to this topic of infant baptism.
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Bishopite
Guest
It is a mystery being it makes us a “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17) intrinsically; that it changes us internally yet the affectations aren’t apparent because it changes our soul as our bodies appear unchanged. And the mystery of baptism will be revealed in eternity.
Right! But what you don’t understand is that the word “ignorant” in Greek doesn’t mean stupid as it would in our modern venacular. Ignorant in Greek means “unlearned” and some Christians and non-Christians are “unlearned” and some things like mysteries e.g., theTrinity will be revealed in eternity.
Therefore your logic doesn’t add up for infant baptism isn’t an “ignorant controversy” at least not in the way you defined ignorant.
Open mind? An open mind is open to truth, otherwise it is open to misinformation.
Have you not read the other posts??
Baptism is for infants because ALL have original sin (Rom 5:12,Gen 5:3) and baptism wipes away ALL sin, and brings us into the son-ship covanent with God by restoring sanctifying grace into our souls (Col 2:11-12). Jesus said to be born of “water and Spirit” in John 3:5. When we are baptized we are born again (2 Cor 5:17). How is that ignorant?
Because you don’t have a position on padeo baptism, you are the one with the open mind?
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Bishopite
Guest
I’m not trying to convince you per se, I’m just giving you what has always been taught for 2000 years.
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Deacon_Joseph
Guest
The covenant that preceded baptism is circumcision. Babies that were 8 days old were circumcised. The new covenant, in the New Testament with Jesus is baptism. This replaces circumcision. If they enter into God’s old covenant as babies, then the same applies for the new covenant. It is the parents responsibility to open the child to the Holy Spirit. As the child grows up, it is his or her responsibility to keep the covenant with God.
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Pax
Guest
P
Pax
Guest
I’ve already seen it and I am going to post a copy of my post above to that thread.
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agangbern
Guest
Above is an incomplete understanding of Col 2:14. Here, "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code , with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." (NIV)
"And you, when you were dead by reason of your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought to life with him, forgiving you all your sins,cancelling the decree against us, which was hostile to us. Indeed, he has taken completely away, nailing it to the cross. " Col 2:13-14 (Douay Version)
Were the ordinances done away with? No. What was cancelled was the decree of death against man. Christ brought life back to man.
"they can atone for their sin nature". Are you saying that the adults or those who are in age of reason can atone for their sin nature? No man can atone man’s sin nature but Christ alone!
Infants must come to an age of reason before being baptized? Maybe yes, if you are referring to the baptism patterned after that of John the Baptist. But was that the baptism followed by the Church? NO. St. Paul asked, "How then were you baptized?" They said, “With John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, John baptized the people with a baptism of repentance, telling them to believe in him who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus;" (Acts 19:3-5)
The baptism that Catholics perform is the equivalent of the circumcision that was and is being implemented by the Jews. Jesus submitted himself to that equivalent ritual while yet at the age of 8 days old whereupon He was officially named Jesus.(Luke 2:21) In the same token, infants as young as 8 days old are christened in the Catholic Church.
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agangbern
Guest
duplicate post deleted by poster…
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tabcom
Guest
IMHO, you should study what Paul ment when he used the word dogma in this verse. With respects to the rest of your post . . . I’ve stated my disagreement elsewhere and fail to see the value of repeating it. If you have a specific question, perhaps I can provide a link to a previous post.
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