Infant Dedication vs Infant Baptism

[preacherman]

djrakowski,
Go back and read Revalation again it says in Rev 22 : 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Key word being prophesy not the whole bible like some people believe prophesy the book of Revalation so make sure you have your facts straight before you go condemming anyone. If you will look at these scriptures a little closer you will see they have the word and between repent and the word baptise that means you need to do both and that is not adding to anything that is what it is saying

 

[djrakowski]

If you will look at these scriptures a little closer you will see they have the word and between repent and the word baptise that means you need to do both and that is not adding to anything that is what it is saying

Sure, preacher, do both… but it doesn’t imply an order, and it saying that it does, you’ve added a preconceived notion of your theology to the text that doesn’t match the practice of the early church, unless you’re talking about adult converts.

 

[MariaG]

No preacher, I do not believe in superstition. Water has no super natural power to cleanse us from sin.

As we see in the answer below, we believe that the water is only an outward symbol of the spiritual reality of Christ’s blood cleansing us from sin.

…

While we believe that God performs miracles through the sacraments, nothing is impossible for God and God can choose to save those who are pleasing to Him outside of the Sacraments.

…

But whether or not you choose to believe that scripture and the history of Christianity supports a regenerative baptism, I pray that you now understand that we do not believe that water has some super natural power but is only an outward symbol of what we believe to be an inward transformation that is only possible because of Christ’s saving blood and God’s power.

God Bless,
Maria

Preacher, do you understand that we are not superstitious about water but actually believe there is a miraculous work of God going on?

I understand that you do not believe this, but can you see that we do? All Glory and honor are to God!

I do not even dare to believe that you will be convinced that our interpretation of scripture is correct and yours isn’t, but I do pray you understand that we do not believe baptism is some superstitious thing that water, without the saving blood of Christ, can save us.

 

[MariaG]

Sure, preacher, do both… but it doesn’t imply an order, and it saying that it does, you’ve added a preconceived notion of your theology to the text that doesn’t match the practice of the early church, unless you’re talking about adult converts.

This is a good point. Most of scripture addresses adults. Scripture does implicitly talk about infants and children.

But the Catholic Church would agree with preacher that for adult converts, repentance will proceed baptism. Just look at the process that those in RCIA must go through. Repentance is taken very seriously in the Catholic Church.

However since we can see in the writings of the early Church that infants were in fact baptized, it also shows why we do not subscribe to a OSAS formula. For an infant can be saved, but must grow in love and faith to continue to be saved.

 

[mikeledes]

Okay Acts 2:38 still stands but if water is the way you recieve God’s forgiveness is water then I guess Romans 10:9 where it says
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. I guess this is not true huh it does not say anything about water in this scripture because it takes more than water

Romans 10:9 must be interpreted in light of Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Mark 16:16 and …

1 Peter 3:20-21

**20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: **

Hebrews 10:22

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Titus 3:5

**5 … but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; **

Which sounds like:

John 3:5

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[preacherman]

djrakowski,
It has been said that water will wash away the effects of sin as well as personally committed sins but my bible tells me that it is the blood of Jesus that washes away the sins unless all these years I have been mislead because I have been taught that Jesus shed his blood on calvary not water and when we take communion it is symbolic of his body and blood not his body and water and there is nothing in the bible to back up sacraments of recioncilliation unless the Catholic Church has written there own bible and there fore as you said earlier taking away or adding to God’s word. The confession you speak of does not do anything but apease your feelings it does not forgive you of your sin it takes the blood of Jesus added to your soul THE PRIEST CANNOT DO IT HE HAS NO AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE YOUR SINS, so that is all I will say because you are not going to change your way of thinking but look at it this way if I am wrong I have nothing to lose but what if you are wrong and you depended on a priest to forgive you.

 

[preacherman]

djarkowski,
If you are talking about baptism of infants to get them to heaven then that is a needless act because until theyn reach the age they know right from wrong they will go directly to heaven if they where to die yes they where born into sin because of Adam but because they do not know right from as an infant God’s call on it is they are innocent

 

[preacherman]

I will bow out from these forums because it is obvious that we do not see eye to eye on this. I am not some crazy preacher but this belief that water and the sacraments (confession) seems a little out of line to me Jesus shed his blood and that is all it takes to cleanse our sins, If you will think back when Jesus went to John to be baptised he was sinless this was done as an example for us to follow a symbol of our sins already forgiven not the water doing it but Jesus shed blood water has a regenerative power only the blood of Jesus

 

[mikeledes]

djrakowski,
It has been said that water will wash away the effects of sin as well as personally committed sins but my bible tells me that it is the blood of Jesus that washes away the sins unless all these years I have been mislead because I have been taught that Jesus shed his blood on calvary not water and when we take communion it is symbolic of his body and blood not his body and water and there is nothing in the bible to back up sacraments of recioncilliation unless the Catholic Church has written there own bible and there fore as you said earlier taking away or adding to God’s word. The confession you speak of does not do anything but apease your feelings it does not forgive you of your sin it takes the blood of Jesus added to your soul THE PRIEST CANNOT DO IT HE HAS NO AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE YOUR SINS, so that is all I will say because you are not going to change your way of thinking but look at it this way if I am wrong I have nothing to lose but what if you are wrong and you depended on a priest to forgive you.

The sins that are washed away in baptism are washed away by the blood of Christ. It is through baptism that Christ’s blood wahses away our sins. Acts 2:38 and all the other veses I’ve listed say the same thing. Regarding the forgiveness and confession. We believe Christ confers forgiveness through this sacrament, not that the priests forgive sins in their own name. Read:

John 20:23 (Jesus speaking to the Apostles).

22And when He had said this, He
breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23"If you forgive the sins of any their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Here is another verse, though not specifically about confession:

James 5:14-15

**14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. **

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I will bow out from these forums because it is obvious that we do not see eye to eye on this. I am not some crazy preacher but this belief that water and the sacraments (confession) seems a little out of line to me Jesus shed his blood and that is all it takes to cleanse our sins, If you will think back when Jesus went to John to be baptised he was sinless this was done as an example for us to follow a symbol of our sins already forgiven not the water doing it but Jesus shed blood water has a regenerative power only the blood of Jesus

The scripture passages are clear, especially Acts 2:38. We have presented several verses that contradict your theology. I’m not surprised you would chose to bow out.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[preacherman]

You have not contridicted my theology what you have done is allow a church to lead you down a primrose path with what they are paintibng as a rosy picture and not telling you to study your bible and find out for yourself instead of just listning to a priest rest assured you have not shaken my faith I still belive the way I have stated.

 

[djrakowski]

djarkowski,
If you are talking about baptism of infants to get them to heaven then that is a needless act because until theyn reach the age they know right from wrong they will go directly to heaven if they where to die yes they where born into sin because of Adam but because they do not know right from as an infant God’s call on it is they are innocent

Preacher, where is that (the underlined section) in the Bible?

Your argument isn’t with me. MariaG, mikeledes and I have used scripture - that you have in your Bible - to prove that baptism is indeed necessary for salvation, which I believe to be most strongly stated in Mark 16:16. If you deny it, your disagreement is with scripture. And I think I’d rather stick with scripture than your interpretation thereof.

 

[djrakowski]

I will bow out from these forums because it is obvious that we do not see eye to eye on this. I am not some crazy preacher but this belief that water and the sacraments (confession) seems a little out of line to me Jesus shed his blood and that is all it takes to cleanse our sins, If you will think back when Jesus went to John to be baptised he was sinless this was done as an example for us to follow a symbol of our sins already forgiven not the water doing it but Jesus shed blood water has a regenerative power only the blood of Jesus

Preacher, I’m disappointed, but not surprised, that you’ve chosen to bow out of this discussion. Mostly, I’m disappointed that you’ve chosen to leave us after having barely engaged the argument. You’ve offered precious little proof of your assertions and interpretations, and for some reason think that should be enough to convince us of your case.

Many of us, including myself and MariaG, were once Bible-only Protestants. Personally, I was of the “once-saved-always-saved” persuasion, so I’ve heard, studied and at one time believed what you’ve written to be true. You seem to think that your facile interpretations, clearly based upon preconceived notions and reading into scripture what you want it to say, that you’ll convince us of the correctness of your position. Needless to say, I’m underwhelmed.

 

[Harmony1911]

You put it a lot better than I did, but yes, that is what I meant. God takes away our sins at Baptism, it is not a symbol of our commitment to him.

 

[Harmony1911]

I was asked this question earlier by one of my protestant friends, and couldn’t answer it very well. I was hoping you all would have better responses than I did.

“Why did Jesus get baptized? Was it just to set a good example, and allow God to tell us he was the chosen one? Or is there something more?”

 

[MariaG]

I will bow out from these forums because it is obvious that we do not see eye to eye on this. I am not some crazy preacher but this belief that water and the sacraments (confession) seems a little out of line to me Jesus shed his blood and that is all it takes to cleanse our sins, If you will think back when Jesus went to John to be baptised he was sinless this was done as an example for us to follow a symbol of our sins already forgiven not the water doing it but Jesus shed blood water has a regenerative power only the blood of Jesus

Maybe if you choose to particpate again you will do so will better critical reading skills since I have posted multiple times the fact that we believe we are cleansed with Christ’s shed blood. And that we believe this happens through baptism.

Repeatedly it has been stated that it is not the water in and of itself, like some kind of lucky rabbits foot, but a miraculous work of God. It is the Blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin and this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I pray that you can actually take time to read our answers and be open to the possibility that you truly have no understanding of Catholic teachings. Stop reading all with what you think we believe and start reading what we say we actually believe.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mikeledes]

You have not contridicted my theology what you have done is allow a church to lead you down a primrose path with what they are paintibng as a rosy picture and not telling you to study your bible and find out for yourself instead of just listning to a priest rest assured you have not shaken my faith I still belive the way I have stated.

What I have done is read the plain words of the Bible and accept what it clearly says about baptism. The fact that you have failed to directly address the verses presented by the Catholic posters in this thread demonstrates - at leat to me - that your argument does not hold water when tested against Scripture.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Mickey]

preacherman:
Let me bust your bubble
Do not worry, you have not busted any bubbles.

 

[Mickey]

Trust me this is the only way to have your sins removed.

No offense, but I will choose to trust the Scriptures and the Church which compiled those Scriptures.

I care about souls and when I see people putting their faith and trust in a man rather than God it is dangerous to your soul

Well, now you can rest easy. Catholics and Orthodox put their trust in the Holy Trinity.

 

[JamesN]

What about 1 Peter 3:21 in all of this? Is this not as direct a teaching as you can get on what baptism achieves?