Infant vs. Believer's Baptism Continued

[Phil12123]

About 900 posts ago, and 60 pages ago, back in post #105 on page 7, I offered some “food for thought” about the subject of this thread. A lot has been said since then over the course of all those posts, but no one will ever convince me that Jesus instructed anyone to baptize infants, and I will never convince any of you that He didn’t. But I think it’s reasonable to say that we have had a pretty good discussion of our respective views and, if nothing else, each side should have a better understanding of the other side’s view of the subject. Maybe I can offer some food for thought in another thread and get another good discussion going there. Till we meet again, there or wherever, I bid you all, "Adieu!"

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Well, I thought this thread was done at 1000, but I guess it is not. So, I have gone back and looked at that food for thought in post #107:

**May I offer some food for thought? The only reason we baptize anyone today is because Jesus instructed His disciples to do so. The question that you pose is really this: WHO did Jesus tell His disciples to baptize? If we want to be faithful followers of Jesus, we need to faithfully follow His instructions, right?

The only Scripture giving those instructions is quoted above in red. So let’s look at it more closely and see if it tells us WHO Jesus instructed His disciples to baptize.

Jesus told them to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching THEM to obey everything I have commanded you.”**

What does that tell us? If they went out and proclaimed the Gospel, or good news, that Jesus died for their sins and rose again, and the hearers did NOT believe that, would they be baptized anyway? Of course not; they would not have been made “disciples.” So, it was only the disciples that were made “of all nations” that were to be baptized. Only people who heard and believed the Gospel became disciples and proper candidates for baptism. Obviously they had to be of an age at which they could comprehend what the original disciples were telling them and could be taught to obey everything Jesus had commanded them. That would not have to be only adults. Young children can understand the Gospel, but infants obviously cannot.

Now, if Jesus felt infants needed baptism to remove original sin or for any other reason, His instructions would have included that. But they do not. To put words into His mouth, adding to His clear instructions is not to be a faithful follower of Jesus, but to be a follower of some manmade tradition.

Peace

There is good thought here. I think you are right that the reason we baptize is because Christ instructed us too. I’m not sure it is the only reason, meaning that even if Christ had not instructed us to, that early Christians (in adapting ideas from other groups, as they did, to promote the cause of Christ) might still have seen fit to use baptism as an initiation rite. But certainly that Jesus instructed us to do so is sufficient reason to make it necessary without any other reasoning needed.

So, with you, I agree the important question becomes who did Jesus tell us to baptize. And the answer is NOT disciples, but THEM. So does the “THEM” refer to disciples? Or might the “THEM” refer to some other group? The obvious question is what other group is present in this passage besided those who are “made into disciples”? To some it might appear that there is none, but I do see another group. I see “panta ta ethne.” This is translated in the NIV as “of all nations”. I looked for the “of” in Greek and I couldn’t find it. Not in the words, not in the grammar. Interestingly enough, in the KJV it is simply translated “all nations.” This may be one of those rare instances where the translators of the KJV did a better job than the NIV. (Don’t hold your breath; the KJV didn’t even translate “mathetensate” as “make disciples” which it clearly is.) A literally rendering of that part of the verse is “going therefore disciple (imperative) all the ‘ethne’.” “Ethne” being understood either as “nations” or, even better, “people” – as in ethnicities.

My contention is that Jesus is sending his disciples to as broad of a field as possible. No longer are they to be restricted, as he was, just to the nation of Israel. They are to take his message everywhere, to all nations. And everywhere they go they are to make disciples, baptize people, and teach all they come in contact with the message he gave them. With that understanding, the command to baptize is unrestricted. The restriction that it should be in anyway limited comes from the disciples own experience of practicing baptism while with Jesus. We who sit trying to judge this 20 centuries later don’t know one way or the other whether or not there are was a time that Jesus had his disciples baptize children. But we do know 3 things that
(1) when the disciples tried to keep the children from coming to him, Jesus chastized his disciples and told them not to forbid the children from coming to him – thus we do not forbid the children from coming for baptism.
(2) whole households were baptized by the apostles when the head of the household converted, whether this included infants or not is speculation on both parts. Perhaps it should not be assumed, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.
(3) the earliest undisputed references to baptism of infants are within the time period when those administering it would have been those taught by the original apostles. It is hard to imagine that they would have been taught one practice by the apostles and then themselves have begun a different practice if it were understood by the first generation of the church that only believers were to be baptized.

The idea that “only people who heard and believed the Gospel became disciples and proper candidates for baptism”, is not something actually set forth in the text, but an interpretation of it that I think is derived more from the context of your own life experience than the gospel itself. But though we end up in different places on this issue, that in no way diminishes my appreciation for your adherence to scripture and desire to fulfill Christ’s commands in your life as best you understand them. I shall try to do the same, and pray that God may bless your ministry to bring glory to his name.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is a continuation of the one of the same name.

God Bless!

Rachel

 

[Grace_Seeker]

But we do know 3 things …

Correction, 4 things…

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.(NIV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.(KJV)

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.(Douay-Rheims)

Therefore go ye, and teach all folks, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to keep all things, whatever things I have commanded to you; and lo! I am with you in all days, into the end of the world.(Wycliffe New Testament)

having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them – to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days – till the full end of the age.(Youngs Literal Translation)

Having gone, accordingly disciple all people, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to guard/keep all which I, myself, commanded to you and behold with you I am all the days until the completion of the age. (my own literal translation)

(4) Even if one were to interpret Matthew 28:19-20 so that the antecedent for αυτους (THEM) referred to “make disciples”, it would follow that one should make disciples by baptizing and teaching, but it would NOT follow that one could not baptize and teach only those who had been made disciples.

One other thing I noted in translating the whole passage, rather than just working through it using my commentaries, is that the verb which we have been debating – μαθητευσατε (mathetensate) – and accepting the NIV translation of “make disciples”, is a simply an imperative of the verb matheteno, which need not be translated “make disciples” at all, but simply as one word, “Disciple!”.

I like that. Jesus is addressing his disciples. Matthew records not the whole speach, but just the essential elements of it. The rest of it goes something like this:

Well, this is it. The day that I was telling you all about when we were in the Upper Room together before I went out into the garden. I didn’t leave you when the nailed me on the Cross, and I’m not really going to leave you now either. Remember, all that I told you about the Holy Spirit, and the power that will come upon you from on high. But, now is the time for me to take my physical leave of you. But you can’t stand here waiting for me to come back. It’s up to you to continue the work I’ve begun and passed on to you. As I am going, you must go too. So, Go! DISCIPLE!! Baptize and teach! And I will be with you, always, right to the very end.

Now, before someone accuses me of “adding” to the scriptures, let me suggest that that little word “make” which we have all be accepting through the previous 1000 posts, is also an “adding” to of the scriptures, and that is my point. Jesus didn’t really command us to “make” disciples. He commanded us to disciple. “Disciple” is a verb NOT a noun. The diffference is instead of the focus being on the product (or people) we produce (as disciples) the force of Jesus’ command is on our actions and our process (of discipling people). In that context, anything that we do that results in ultimately producing disciples is what fulfills the great commission. Not that everything we do to produce or make disciples is guaranteed to result in a disciple, but the key is that we strive to disciple people. And this fits what those who baptize infants are doing. We baptize them and enroll them in our churches where we pastor, shepherd, and teach them to guard the teachings of Christ in their own life even to the point of making him Lord of their lives. Thus we produce disciples in the process.

But going out and teaching people about Jesus till they made a confession of faith and decision to follow him, thus becoming a disciple, and then baptizing them into the fellowship of others who were being discipled and who already were committed disciples would qualify for doing that as well.

So, I’ll argue for a both/and approach to how we might go about fulfilling the great commission. As long as we don’t stop producing disciples one way or the other, I think Christ is probably pleased.

 

[peary]

When Jesus healed children in the bible, was it due to their acceptance of Him? No, it was due to the faith of their parents. That is why the Church, from its earliest days, has never had a problem in baptizing children based upon the faith of their parents. It’s clear to me!