Infants Know Right from Wrong

[pinay]

Not just about abortion, this also flies in the face of the those who claim they should wait till age 8 to baptize.

Absolutely. That is more at what I am getting at by posting the article. If the argument is made that infants cannot be baptized because they are unaware of their sins, then not only Scripture, but science, as demonstrated in the article, shows otherwise.

Jesus says, “suffer the little children to come unto me”…Mormons and others who wait to baptize say, “After an age WE deem appropriate, suffer the children above age 8 to come unto me.”

it is almost as if they treat God as if he was a movie theater…only people above a certain age are allowed…

Hi AtticusFinch and TriuneUnity! How are you doing today? Both of you have very awesome avatar-names.

In LDS doctrine, everybody is born with the Light of Christ within them. Yes, we can refer to this as instinct. LDS believe that people are born with the capacity to recognize good from evil, so it is not a surprise to me that the infants approved of the good puppet.

In LDS doctrine, baptism is much more than recognizing right from wrong. In LDS doctrine, baptism is a covenant. There are certain things one has to know before one can enter into that covenant. First of all, he has to know of God and of Jesus Christ’s Atonement. Then he has to learn to repent (yes, predicated upon him knowing right from wrong) and forgive others. Then he needs to understand the commandments. Then, yes, he needs to be at least 8 years old - it is what the prophets deemed as the age by which one can attain and be responsible for his own understanding.

Now, if a child turns 8 and he still doesn’t understand all the things I mentioned above, he can’t qualify for baptism either.

 

[crazzeto]

Something which is fundamentally good can become fallen. We know this because man, who was good at his creation, did become fallen. That is the point, though. Man is already fallen, hence not fundamentally good. Scripture does not describe the condition of the fallen man as a mere weakness. Do you agree with the 2nd Council of Orange’s conclusions on this matter?

The error you make is that you believe the fact that it is fallen now changes the very nature of the object. This is incorrect, the only comment God had about man as a creation was “very good”, he never turned around and said “whoops did I say very good, I meant wicked and twisted”. The nature of Man doesn’t change, nor does the fundamental nature of creation. God wouldn’t have said “very good”, unless it was.

 

[jimmy]

So I can butt in the line to get my kid into the best class? I think you are missing the point.

Yes, parents have a special kind of responsibility in relation to their children. We have a special responsibility to those close to us. But in no case does that mean we can use maternal or familial love, or love of country, or other such emotions, as an excuse to perpetrate or allow injustice.

These kinds of emotions are primarily instinctual, and are part of our animal nature. We share these emotions with other members of the animal world.

Joy is wonderful, but it is by no means an integral component of love, or inevitable result. It is often the result, but some are asked to bear without it, or without feeling the closeness of the Divine. That does not mean they didn’t know God or that their acts were not acts of love.

No, the ends do not justify the means. You can’t do evil for the sake of those you love, but neither can you do evil for yourself. This has nothing to do with the relationship between love of those closest to you and love of a complete stranger though. It is simply the result of the fact that there is truth. You can’t do whatever you want.

To reduce love to an act of the will is to destroy the very essence of love. Love without joy is not love at all but simply self destruction. I can die a martyr but that doesn’t mean I have love. There is a reason why we love, and it isn’t self destruction.

A man with no passion, no drive, behind his will is a man with no love (and no faith or hope). Every man has a natural passion driving him to love God and the beautiful.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The error you make is that you believe the fact that it is fallen now changes the very nature of the object. This is incorrect, the only comment God had about man as a creation was “very good”, he never turned around and said “whoops did I say very good, I meant wicked and twisted”. The nature of Man doesn’t change, nor does the fundamental nature of creation. God wouldn’t have said “very good”, unless it was.

The comment that God made about creation was before the fall of man. The nature of man did change at that point. Man went from holiness to unholiness. The natural man is said to be by nature a child of wrath, a servant of disobedience, and a slave to sin after the fall. This could not be said of Adam before the fall. God ceased to create through His power on the seventh day, and the rest of history is the providential outworking of that original creation. So the fall doesn’t effect God’s statement before it occurred.

 

[crazzeto]

The comment that God made about creation was before the fall of man. The nature of man did change at that point. Man went from holiness to unholiness. The natural man is said to be by nature a child of wrath, a servant of disobedience, and a slave to sin after the fall. This could not be said of Adam before the fall. God ceased to create through His power on the seventh day, and the rest of history is the providential outworking of that original creation. So the fall doesn’t effect God’s statement before it occurred.

God is Eternal, i.e. outside time… God didn’t need to wait for man to fall for him to know it would happen, this is why it is written Christ was crusified before the foundation of the world! God said man was very good, it is true.

 

[TriuneUnity]

God is Eternal, i.e. outside time… God didn’t need to wait for man to fall for him to know it would happen, this is why it is written Christ was crusified before the foundation of the world! God said man was very good, it is true.

Were the angelic hosts created good, crazzeto?

 

[crazzeto]

Were the angelic hosts created good, crazzeto?

Of course triun, I sense a satan comment comming…

 

[TriuneUnity]

Of course triun, I sense a satan comment comming…

If only because it exposes the error of saying that which is created good must remain good regardless of any events that occur after its creation. Strictly, of course, that would mean Satan is still fundamentally good.

 

[crazzeto]

If only because it exposes the error of saying that which is created good must remain good regardless of any events that occur after its creation. Strictly, of course, that would mean Satan is still fundamentally good.

Actually, no it really doesn’t

Edit
No matter your personal take, you can’t compare Satan to the creation of humaity… Cudo’s for trying though

 

[Bluegoat]

If only because it exposes the error of saying that which is created good must remain good regardless of any events that occur after its creation. Strictly, of course, that would mean Satan is still fundamentally good.

Perhaps it would be better to say that he is a fundamental good?

But yes, he was created good, and so by nature he is. Which is what makes hid defection evil. One can only be evil by going against one’s fundamental nature.

The reason he can’t “repent” is that he is outside of time and his decisions are eternal.

I always like to remember the inscription Dante sees on the gates to Hell:

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE.
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE.
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW.

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT.
I WAS RAISED HERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE,
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE"

 

[TriuneUnity]

Actually, no it really doesn’t

Edit
No matter your personal take, you can’t compare Satan to the creation of humaity… Cudo’s for trying though

Why doesn’t it? And why can it not be compared to the creation of humanity? Both were under God’s benediction of “very good.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Perhaps it would be better to say that he is a fundamental good?

I would agree with that, if it is understood that man’s ultimate destiny is to be restored to complete holiness.

But yes, he was created good, and so by nature he is. Which is what makes hid defection evil. One can only be evil by going against one’s fundamental nature.

After the fall, his nature is as St. Paul describes it in Ephesians 2. After Baptism and the life of God indwelling him, that is different.

 

[crazzeto]

Why doesn’t it? And why can it not be compared to the creation of humanity? Both were under God’s benediction of “very good.”

For starts Gods only comment about mans general nature is “very good”

Gods only comment about Satan’s fundamental nature is “murder from the start”… That is to say, the angels were given a choice from the start, their one chance to choose God or oppose. Satan and 1/3rd of the stars choose to oppose God, and thus in their sin were murders from the start.

It should be noted that nothing besides God is truely eternal. God created all, God can uncreate all… But regardless, God is eternal and all of this is present to him right now. Adam and Eve are presently in a state of divine grace in the garden of eden, Jesus is presently being Crusified, the world is presently being Judged, I am presently writing this post, Hitler is presently invading Poland starting WWII… It’s all present, right now. And man is “very good”.

 

[crazzeto]

Here’s one more logical puzzle for our you Triune:

Is there anything you can do that can get you into heaven?

Edit
(beleive it or not, no I’m not changing the subject)

 

[TriuneUnity]

For starts Gods only comment about mans general nature is “very good”

God’s comment about everything is very good, since it applies to everything God had created, including man, the creation, the heavens, the angels, etc. You are correct in pointing out that God says that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. That would prove too much, however, if you’re using that to mean Satan’s nature, since it would mean that God created Satan as a murderer. Which God doesn’t mean, of course, but that Satan rebelled after he was created, just like man.

You are using an argument of God’s attributes to say something about the nature of man (God’s omniscience and omnipresence). God is every where at once, but that doesn’t mean that what God states is always applicable. God pronounces a curse on mankind at the fall, that doesn’t mean the curse will not eventually be undone… i.e. it’s not eternal. Using that logic, the curse would have to apply to mankind before the fall, since God is as present at the fall as He is at creation.

 

[crazzeto]

God’s comment about everything is very good, since it applies to everything God had created, including man, the creation, the heavens, the angels, etc. You are correct in pointing out that God says that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. That would prove too much, however, if you’re using that to mean Satan’s nature, since it would mean that God created Satan as a murderer. Which God doesn’t mean, of course, but that Satan rebelled after he was created, just like man.

You are using an argument of God’s attributes to say something about the nature of man (God’s omniscience and omnipresence). God is every where at once, but that doesn’t mean that what God states is always applicable. God pronounces a curse on mankind at the fall, that doesn’t mean the curse will not eventually be undone… i.e. it’s not eternal. Using that logic, the curse would have to apply to mankind before the fall, since God is as present at the fall as He is at creation.

Redharring, God said from the start that there would be a saviour this is in the very same chapter that God is pronouncing curses in.

Edit
Please answer my question about works

 

[TriuneUnity]

Here’s one more logical puzzle for our you Triune:

Is there anything you can do that can get you into heaven?

Edit
(beleive it or not, no I’m not changing the subject)

You mean that would qualify me entrance into heaven of my own accord? Keep the law perfectly.

 

[crazzeto]

You mean that would qualify me entrance into heaven of my own accord? Keep the law perfectly.

So Lutherans subscribe to salvations by works alone? That’s news to me

Edit
That is to say, any thing you can do not just outside of the Church, but outside of Christ. What can you do, outside of Christ, to get into heaven

 

[TriuneUnity]

Redharring, God said from the start that there would be a saviour this is in the very same chapter that God is pronouncing curses in.

Edit
Please answer my question about works

Yes, but He still pronounces the curse on man. The curse has applied since the fall of man. It didn’t apply to man before the fall. In the same sense, man’s nature as good doesn’t apply after the fall.

 

[crazzeto]

Yes, but He still pronounces the curse on man. The curse has applied since the fall of man. It didn’t apply to man before the fall. In the same sense, man’s nature as good doesn’t apply after the fall.

I should stop editing posts, I keep clarifying things while you’re replying. See my comments, outside of Christ.