Infertility

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Something has definitely changed in the Pope’s attitude towards condom use. If it was just one report, then, fair enough it could possibly be twisted or simply untrue. However, this has made worldwide news, so there must be at least some substance to it.

Prior to this, condoms were not allowed, even for people with HIV.
The Pope is in a very difficult position, and I respect him for having the courage to even make this statement.

(Did you read the rest of my post BTW?)
Most of the media reports yesterday didn’t include the full text of the quote. (Even the author of the book said that many of the articles yesterday were getting it wrong.) Have you read the full section of the book that deals with condoms?
 
Something has definitely changed in the Pope’s attitude towards condom use. If it was just one report, then, fair enough it could possibly be twisted or simply untrue. However, this has made worldwide news, so there must be at least some substance to it.

Prior to this, condoms were not allowed, even for people with HIV.
The Pope is in a very difficult position, and I respect him for having the courage to even make this statement.

(Did you read the rest of my post BTW?)
I understand what your trying to do Mrs(?) user3856530, however you are making the same mistake that the secular media and UNAIDS is making. That is, taking the Popes comments completely out of context and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-benedict-advocates-right-sexuality-not-condom-use-in-fight-against-hiv/
In the excerpts offered in LOR, just two brief paragraphs provide the Pope’s response to a question on sexuality in the world today. He says that concentrating on the use of the condom only serves to trivialize sexuality.
This trivialization leads many people to no longer see sex as an expression of love, but as a self-administered drug. The fight against the banalization of sexuality is part of a great effort to change this view to a more positive one.
According to one much-commented excerpt printed in L’Osservatore Romano, the Pope concedes that there can be single cases in which the use of a condom may be justified.
He uses the example of prostitutes who might use prophylactics as a first step toward moralization, that is, becoming moral. In such a case, condom use might be their first act of responsibility to redevelop their consciousness of the fact that not everything is permitted and that one cannot do everything one wants.
While secular outlets such as Time Magazine characterized this remark as “a stunning turnaround” for the Church, Pope Benedict goes on to explain that this is not the true and proper way to defeat HIV. Instead what is necessary is the humanization of sexuality
The Pope in no way changed Church teaching regarding condoms, indeed the Pope never even said that even in this context, that there is literally no sin involved in the usage of condoms. What he’s saying is that Condom usage in this light, that is, in light of driving the individual towards greater morality and (hopefully) holyness, is not necessarly a sin which will disconnect you from the Body of Christ.

This is a view which is utterly consitant with 2,000+ years of church teaching. The church isn’t changing its position on contraception, and the Pope reaffirmed that condoms will not solve the AIDs crisis. I’m sorry, but the Church isn’t wrong about contraception, it’s not chaning it’s position. Rather we have yet another example of the secular media taking data out of context and using this to try and “stir the pot” as it were.
 
breakingnews.ie/world/pope-birth-control-a-lesser-evil-than-hiv-482956.html
The pope has approved using condoms even if they mean avoiding a possible pregnancy, providing they stop the transmission of HIV to a partner.
The Vatican today said the was condom a lesser evil in such a case, signalling a seismic shift in papal teaching as it further explained the pope’s comments.
Whether you like it or not, there has been a change in Catholic teaching. This is a good thing because it means the Church can adapt. Anyway, I don’t want to drag the thread off topic, there are already loads of threads about condoms on here.

The point I would like to draw from this is that in the future the Pope may decide that IVF is acceptable after all, or maybe certain forms of IVF.
Think of all those dead people who died from AIDS because they didn’t use a condom based on Catholic teaching.
 
breakingnews.ie/world/pope-birth-control-a-lesser-evil-than-hiv-482956.html

Whether you like it or not, there has been a change in Catholic teaching. This is a good thing because it means the Church can adapt. Anyway, I don’t want to drag the thread off topic, there are already loads of threads about condoms on here.

The point I would like to draw from this is that in the future the Pope may decide that IVF is acceptable after all, or maybe certain forms of IVF.
Think of all those dead people who died from AIDS because they didn’t use a condom based on Catholic teaching.
There has been no change in Church teaching, the use of condoms remains sinful… Mortally sinful for most of us on these forums.
 
Hello Everyone:

I do not know if I belong here or not. I guess that depends on who I am, and I don’t really know that yet. First let me say that there are so many inspiring stories on this thread…I can see why it was stickied, for these are true-life tales of suffering, anguish, and nobility. You have all gone through so much, and I have so much to learn from all of you, and I am so grateful for having had the chance to read all 67 pages of this. Thank you all for being willing to share your stories, and encourage and support the rest of us who post, and even those thousands who lurk and never say anything…these stories are trials of the human spirit, and a testimony of God’s grace working its mysterious (and dare I say unknowable) ways in our lives.

I have been married to my wife for 20 years. I have watched my brother and sister get married and raise families of their own…and my wife’s sister, too, become pregnant and give birth to a beautiful boy and girl. I’ve seen my coworkers at the Catholic school where I teach become parents; and I’ve taught several of their children as they grow up. I’ve observed all the kids at Mass as well…as they grow older, new ones arrive to take their place.

I’m a convert from Anglicanism. I became Catholic two decades ago after what I would call a long search (Ronald Eyre), but even as I converted I knew the primacy of marriage and family to the faith I was joining. The fact that I already knew this before I went from Cantebury to Rome doesn’t really change anything, though. I would still be an outsider looking in, no matter how long I stayed here. I’ve been an outsider for so long I now no longer know if it is by choice or circumstance.

I think I may be considered “infertile”, but I don’t know if I belong here. There are a few men in this thread; not many, but a few. We are scattered throughout these pages, almost afterthoughts, like rowboats on an ocean. Where else can we go, save out to the sea? What I do know is that I can father children…I have made my wife pregnant at least half a dozen times over our marriage, but in each case, she has suffered a miscarriage or stillbirth. This has been devastating to her; the stress of it all eventually led to a nervous breakdown, and she was eventually placed in a mental hospital until she was recovered. She is now back to normal, thanks to the good doctors and a rather complex series of drugs/medications…and has thrown herself into the raising of her sister’s children instead. Because of her uterine problems, she will never carry a child to term. Regrettably, adoption is not possible for us. So we have remained childless all these years, and now that she has passed on into menopause, we have pretty much given up on ever having a family.

That being said, I am grateful for all the things I do have: my faith, health, a good job, friends, prosperity, all of that. But our inability to have a family has been the hardest thing we have ever had to accept in our lives…and I think that it has harmed us both, made us less charitable, less loving, less giving. It is said that suffering ennobles the soul, but in my case it has turned me inward, and made me jaded, cynical, depressed, pessimistic. It is encouraging to see that others here have been able to see the good in all of this; but for me, it has been a very discouraging thing. I have been very disheartened by society’s inability to deal with childless couples; there are very few resources out there for us, and what are available don’t really address the father’s grief at all (which I suppose is understandable…my wife went through much more anguish than I ever did, I suppose). Our church doesn’t seem very interested in childless couples either (and again, that’s understandable, as they are already pretty busy running countless youth groups and outreach and charitable groups of all stripes). I myself am active in some of these groups (the local Knights of Columbus) and I know there’s so much going on, that honestly, I can’t blame them for putting this on the back burner.

It would be nice if there was a separate forum for people in this situation. I know it was suggested several pages back, but the idea didn’t seem to go anywhere. If I read the postings rightly, people seemed to be fearful that it would be too complicated to administer. The parenting and family forums are huge…thousands and thousands of posts, many of them multiple pages long, covering every facet of children and their raising. So much complexity they need 18 moderators to keep track of it all. One of the incredibly courageous women here made a group called “Elizabeth’s Hope” for her sisters, but I don’t know if men belong there…the group list seems mainly for the wives, and you can’t look in without joining. If there is another forum for infertile catholics on another website, I don’t know about it yet. It would be nice to find a place to call home.

I suppose this is despair. The sickness unto death (Kierkegaard). God may not have forsaken us, true, but after awhile you get so down and out that you really don’t feel like caring about it anymore. You lose yourself in work, maybe (that’s what I did). Or volunteering at the church (I did that too). If you keep yourself occupied, you don’t notice it as much. You feel it more on holidays (like Christmas) when you have the time to slow down and think and reflect. Then you remember why you kept yourself so busy all these years. It starts to make sense why so many men have lost themselves in drink or drugs or other vices. I just wish there could have been another way.

Jacques
 
Hi Jacques, I’m male.

I’ve never considered that I did not belong here, based on my gender. Strangely, I didn’t really consider that my gender mattered, at least for this thread. I have never felt unwelcome, despite my gender (or more importantly, despite my views.)

However, I see where you are coming from. Most internet forums dealing with infertility do seem to have a strong female contingent. Maybe females generally are more open to discussing this?
 
Hi Jacques, I’m male.

I’ve never considered that I did not belong here, based on my gender. Strangely, I didn’t really consider that my gender mattered, at least for this thread. I have never felt unwelcome, despite my gender (or more importantly, despite my views.)

However, I see where you are coming from. Most internet forums dealing with infertility do seem to have a strong female contingent. Maybe females generally are more open to discussing this?
Hello User:

Many thanks for your reply. I’m not sure if gender matters or not. Of course on the Internet we are all anonymous, in a sense, we could be male or female (unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.jpg). That being said, the strong female contingent of which you speak is interesting, and I think has several reasons. My wife invests much more of herself in reproduction than I do, by our very natures…the vast majority of my genetic contribution is wasted, and this would be true whether our marriage was fertile or not. The wife has a single precious genetic chance a month, and everything is invested in that one chance (I see here the agony of women who do the two week wait, hoping that this time, things took…then being heartbroken when they don’t).

Also, my wife carries the full weight and effort of the pregnancy. My efforts can only be secondary (providing financial resources, time, support, all of that). As she has much more invested, she will be much more affected by it if things go wrong. There are also hormonal influences I cannot feel at all, and which I only dimly perceive.

Third: while men can either produce viable seed or not, there are so many more ways things can go wrong in the female. Everything from blocked tubes to PCOS to Endometriosis to ovarian failure to bicornate uterus to whatever. This is well demonstrated, here: shinndig.com/images/man-woman%20machine.jpg So I guess it’s natural women would speak more of this, as for every way we can have problems, they have a dozen. It is said that man is to woman as fountain pen is to jet plane; there is much truth in that statement, I think.

A fourth and I think neglected possibility is masculine “culture”, if I might call it that. When my wife was miscarrying, she was falling apart (understandably)…and while I was devastated, it was important to “be strong” to keep things going in our lives (everything from driving to the hospital to dealing with visitors, running the house, getting medication from the pharmacy, and all the other stuff that consumes your “ordinary time”). I had to deal with things like burial and all that…she literally couldn’t face the idea, because it was so painful. That meant repressing how I felt, which is probably unhealthy in the long term, but certainly necessary in my case. If I had become so grief-stricken that I could not function, it would have made things even worse…she needed me to keep things going, until she felt better. I’m probably not explaining this very well, which is why i put quotes around “culture”…I’m pretty sure it is important, but I’m not sure how.

Thanks for your contributions, even if they are controversial…we need diversity of opinions to build better answers to our mutual problems. If someone ever tells you there’s only one right way to read/interpret/look at something, don’t just back away slowly…run!

Jacques
 
Hi everyone
I haven’t been here for a long time. Still infertile although I tried a few things (alternative natural herbs and dieting) It has been very hard these last months because trying stuff always make your hopes go up, doesn’t it. So I’ve been hoping to become a mother now for 3,6 years and in some ways the dream seems closer to fulfilment than it has for a while.

**First of all **I have tried out a very hard low-glycemical (?) diet a few times over the last year. It was so difficult that I just did it for max 3,5 weeks both times. The first time I was on it I saw the most beautiful cycle on my Creigton chart, that I have ever had. Next time I tried it it was not a pretty chart but I conceived without knowing it. I went of the diet in the middle of the cycle already because it was so hard. (It ended in SA very fast but still)
Now I was on it for the 3rd time and this time I choose to just eat one or two diet meals a day and allow myself a normal meal a day too. And this cycle was surprisingly nice too. I almost thought I was finally a mom but then started spotting yesterday. I think that if I could do the diet 100% for 3-4 months I might really become pregnant and have a baby becuase it seems the diet reallty affects my hormones.

Secondly, We have moved to a different country and I have suddenly found out that adoption might be a lot easier here than where I am from. You may only have to wait max 3 years for a baby.It is like a dream. At the same time we are finally going to a Napro doctor again in January. Last time we were in Napro I had the impression that it was just a long treatment and not very copmpetent. Now this time it is a different doctor. I hope it is better. I have just read again about their good succes rates and am wondering I maybe they really could help us. At the same time I am wondering if I should not start to put adoption first now. I am really ready to be a mom and tired of the endless dissapointments. If anyone has read this far please give me your opinion about what I have written.

Sincerely and Mery Christmas
Amber
 
Hi everyone
I haven’t been here for a long time. Still infertile although I tried a few things (alternative natural herbs and dieting) It has been very hard these last months because trying stuff always make your hopes go up, doesn’t it. So I’ve been hoping to become a mother now for 3,6 years and in some ways the dream seems closer to fulfilment than it has for a while.

**First of all **I have tried out a very hard low-glycemical (?) diet a few times over the last year. It was so difficult that I just did it for max 3,5 weeks both times. The first time I was on it I saw the most beautiful cycle on my Creigton chart, that I have ever had. Next time I tried it it was not a pretty chart but I conceived without knowing it. I went of the diet in the middle of the cycle already because it was so hard. (It ended in SA very fast but still)
Now I was on it for the 3rd time and this time I choose to just eat one or two diet meals a day and allow myself a normal meal a day too. And this cycle was surprisingly nice too. I almost thought I was finally a mom but then started spotting yesterday. I think that if I could do the diet 100% for 3-4 months I might really become pregnant and have a baby becuase it seems the diet reallty affects my hormones.

Secondly, We have moved to a different country and I have suddenly found out that adoption might be a lot easier here than where I am from. You may only have to wait max 3 years for a baby.It is like a dream. At the same time we are finally going to a Napro doctor again in January. Last time we were in Napro I had the impression that it was just a long treatment and not very copmpetent. Now this time it is a different doctor. I hope it is better. I have just read again about their good succes rates and am wondering I maybe they really could help us. At the same time I am wondering if I should not start to put adoption first now. I am really ready to be a mom and tired of the endless dissapointments. If anyone has read this far please give me your opinion about what I have written.

Sincerely and Mery Christmas
Amber
Hi Amber:

Welcome back. I am new here (thought our marriage has been infertile 2o0 years, and will continue to be infertile, forever). Trying new things does raise your expectations, yes, especially when they are dashed by failure, but if you don’t try new things, how can you ever make progress?

About the diet: if it seems to be helping, of course, keep at it. I have no experience of this diet, but there’s lots of people on the thread who are very well informed; maybe they know more. Regarding adoption, it is not possible for us, but if it’s possible for you, I’d say go for it. More than that, I’d say, why not try both strategies? That is, start with the adoption process, even though it might take 3 years, and continue trying to conceive as you go forward in the adoption process? Maybe you will get lucky on both ends…and if one doesn’t work, then the other is still possible.

Good luck. I’ll be praying for you, and I’m sure the others here will do so as well.

Jacques
 
Dear Jacques

Yes I have to try out the diet a 100%. Maybe it will really work. It is just a terribly hard diet.
As for the adoption hope. I guess it was already dashed again. I found out that in the particular area where I live it takes 7-8 years. I just really wish I had not gotten my hopes up now in the first place. It was such a wonderful thought that I might be a parent within the next few years…
As for doing both. It is not allowed. You can not be on a waiting list and at the same time be in fertility treatment in any of the places where I have lived.
I guess I am feeling quite hopeless again now

Amber:confused:
 
Jacques,

Thanks for your Christmas Eve post. You are not alone. I am right there with you. My guess is there are many Catholic men like us out there in the same or similar situation. A support group would be very helpful, I think. So I second your motion (would third and fourth it if I could).

I am brand new to the forums. Was feeling about the same as you and decided as a new year’s resolution to do something about it. So I googled Catholic forums and found this site, and your post. Voila? Boy that was easy.

This is my very first post here and I think maybe I will stick around. So maybe I should introduce myself. I am really not confrontational and try to not get my blood pressure up by reading all the various voices out there blurting out about contraception and IVF. I know what I believe and I think I know right from wrong. Not my place to tell others. I am not a judge. What I am is a biochemist. I hold a doctorate in biochemistry and could tell you exactly what IVF is and does, what exactly on the molecular level is wrong about embryonic stem cell research, etc., but am not motivated to do so. I am also an attorney and my arguments can be caustic, so I try to stay away from those triggers. Like you, I too am a Knight and past officer of the Knights of Columbus.

My wife and I are both infertile. Adds a whole new twist to the meaning of the phrase “made for each other” I think. We found out with scientific certainty about 2 yrs ago and are still dealing. We are heavy into the adoption research stage and identifying adoption centers, etc. Moved into a house with four bedrooms so we have plenty of space for errant children wandering about if we can find them, in time.

Making this worse (or better?) we are separated by many states from both sides of our families. We are basically isolated, have few friends since we are recent transplants to our current state, and don’t quite fit into the demographics of our local church(es).

If you hear of or find out how we can start our own discussion group, that would be great. It is what I’m looking for (and need?). The need is firstly fellowship with fellow believers, and secondly support dealing with this cross/blessing.

Peace,
TJ
 
Dear Jacques

Yes I have to try out the diet a 100%. Maybe it will really work. It is just a terribly hard diet.
As for the adoption hope. I guess it was already dashed again. I found out that in the particular area where I live it takes 7-8 years. I just really wish I had not gotten my hopes up now in the first place. It was such a wonderful thought that I might be a parent within the next few years…
As for doing both. It is not allowed. You can not be on a waiting list and at the same time be in fertility treatment in any of the places where I have lived.
I guess I am feeling quite hopeless again now

Amber:confused:
Hi Amber:

I will continue to pray for you. I’m sorry the adoption route takes longer than you thought it would…but here’s the thing. Why not go ahead with the adoption process anyway? The sooner you begin, the sooner you stand a reasonable chance of getting a child. I am surprised about the claim that you can’t do both at the same time, I have never heard of this. How will the adoption agency know of the steps you are taking to have your own child? Frankly, that’s none of their business, and with current privacy rules (in Canada, anyway), I can’t imagine the fertility clinic would release the information to third parties anyway.

But please don’t feel hopeless. Here’s an idea. Surely you live somewhere close to a border. Maybe you can do the fertility treatment in one State, say, and the adoption in another? Surely there must be some way to keep both agencies at arms length from each other. If my wife and I had any chance at all of conception, and had adoption been possible, we probably would have done the adoption process here in Ontario, and then travelled to New York State for fertility, and the one would never have known of the other.

Hoping things will get better.

Jacques
 
Jacques,

Thanks for your Christmas Eve post. You are not alone. I am right there with you. My guess is there are many Catholic men like us out there in the same or similar situation. A support group would be very helpful, I think. So I second your motion (would third and fourth it if I could). I am brand new to the forums. Was feeling about the same as you and decided as a new year’s resolution to do something about it. So I googled Catholic forums and found this site, and your post. Voila? Boy that was easy.

This is my very first post here and I think maybe I will stick around. So maybe I should introduce myself. I am really not confrontational and try to not get my blood pressure up by reading all the various voices out there blurting out about contraception and IVF. I know what I believe and I think I know right from wrong. Not my place to tell others. I am not a judge. What I am is a biochemist. I hold a doctorate in biochemistry and could tell you exactly what IVF is and does, what exactly on the molecular level is wrong about embryonic stem cell research, etc., but am not motivated to do so. I am also an attorney and my arguments can be caustic, so I try to stay away from those triggers. Like you, I too am a Knight and past officer of the Knights of Columbus. My wife and I are both infertile. Adds a whole new twist to the meaning of the phrase “made for each other” I think. We found out with scientific certainty about 2 yrs ago and are still dealing. We are heavy into the adoption research stage and identifying adoption centers, etc. Moved into a house with four bedrooms so we have plenty of space for errant children wandering about if we can find them, in time.

Making this worse (or better?) we are separated by many states from both sides of our families. We are basically isolated, have few friends since we are recent transplants to our current state, and don’t quite fit into the demographics of our local church(es). If you hear of or find out how we can start our own discussion group, that would be great. It is what I’m looking for (and need?). The need is firstly fellowship with fellow believers, and secondly support dealing with this cross/blessing.

Peace,
TJ
Hi TJ:

Thanks for your reply. There must be one man for every woman posting on these threads…but we sure don’t see them, they are hidden away somewhere. I am hoping that eventually there will be such forums; but for now, we must manage as best we can, I suppose. Try not to become angry about all the IVF stuff on these threads…this is brand new technology, and as such it is in a state of flux…some things are morally wrong, but who is to say that the technology is of itself evil, when it is changing so fast? Science and technology is morally neutral; it is what you do with it that matters. There might well someday be some sort of “assisted reproduction” that is morally permissible (the thing is conceivable, after all). The key to all of this is that the conception of the child is not separated from the procreative act of co-creation with the spouses and God, (according to Catholic doctrine). That being said, I can imagine various scenarios that could meet this requirement for a number of cases. IVF technically means “in glass”, not in the womb, but I can imagine a future treatment that might make a man suffering from aspermia or azoospermia fertile again. That being said, if the good doctors could come up with a way to sufficiently miniaturize the machinery/technology so that it could actually happen in the uterus, it might well no longer fail the test and become morally licit. Sperm and eggs are microscopic after all. Maybe a biological machine could someday be built that would do this. This would be a variant of “In Vivo Fertilization”, rather than “In Vitro Fertilization”. So far, though, this is not possible. I know there is a variant of IVF called GIFT (Gamete Intrafallopian Transfer) which might satisfy Catholic morality…but you still need to take the sperm and egg outside of the body, and manipulate/process them. But fertilization, should it occur, takes place in the woman. There’s more on this rather fascinating idea here: www2.loras.edu/~CatholicHE/Arch/Sexuality/Gamete.html

In the meantime, people will debate and look into all their options (when you are desperate, you are often willing to try anything, as I’m sure you know). Even I was given “nuclear options” to consider when I discovered my wife and I could never have kids. I am fertile, and my wife can conceive, but cannot carry a pregnancy. Her sister, who can do both, is not Catholic, and even offered to conceive for me (in the natural way)…or failing that, to carry a pregnancy my wife and I made on our behalf! I can’t see any way these options could be morally permissible, no matter what universe you lived in…but when you are desperate, you’ll consider everything. So try to look at the IVF stuff that way, that’s what I do. They say it is a hallmark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it (Aristotle).

I am so glad adoption is possible for you. It looks like you started early, getting everything ready. Good for you! I will keep looking around to see what can be done for the discussion/fellowship/support end…there is definitely a need for it, and frankly, I’m surprised it hasn’t been done already.

It’s so great to see you on the forum, and I hope you’ll stick around.

Jacques
 
Thank you Jacques

Actually I live in Europe. And you are not allowed to be in fertility treatment and adoption at the same time. This can be checked because they ask for your medical records when accepting you as an adoptive parent. Surely we can try diets and other more “alternative” things, which I am planning to do anyways. As for those rules, they are in place to procect the ádoptable children. The adoptive parents are really meant to be fully in the adoptive process and not still really hoping for that biological child. It makes sense to me in a way.
Anyways… Maybe we will move. I found out that it depends on where in the country we live, how long the waiting list is. If we live in a big city we have a much shorter waiting time. I also started looking into foster care…
There are so many questions. Wow, I never considered that before, but there are actually many children who need permanent foster families. Maybe it is something for us…
I have to start praying more about that. Actually throughout Advent I was praying this Frank Pavone Prayer. It says something about how we want to create a culture that is open to life and welcomes the unborn as well as the born children. Praying that prayer one day it suddently dawned on me that maybe God will really ask US to receive a an already born child… and not an unborn child (through conception).
I wish you all the best
Amber

PS If anyone will share some experiences with **foster care **I would love to hear about it.
 
Thanks for the link Jacques. GIFT is an interesting process and I understand all that you write about IVF, all too well. Still cannot agree with either. That Humanae vitae thing just keeps getting in the way from my perspective. But that is just my perspective. I try very hard not to judge others and would rather just avoid such discussions because it is such an excitable topic here on this board. Humanae vitae seems pretty clear on its face to me.

Your family’s response seems rather interesting. There are many ways to interpret that. The good way to interpret it is they really care about you and love you both. That kind-of family is a gift in itself and to be treasured. There are many who do not have such supportive families. Not sure if we started “early” … we’ve been married nearly 10 yrs but put off trying to conceive for a number of years while I was in school (again). I think this issue has really drawn us closer together. I really like this article linked to in the first couple posts of this sticky:

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0604fea3.asp

It is one of the most uplifting things I’ve read about infertility in the last 3 yrs since we’ve known about our problems. I wonder if there are more resources like this out there.

Have you looked through the internet for other places that might be a home to such folks as ourselves? Hard to imagine there is not Catholic support group for us. I think we need it. I know I need it. Heck, I need a support group just because I’m an attorney:

legalunderground.com/2005/03/lawyer_depressi.html

Adding this infertility thing to the already immense predisposition to depression and suicide in my profession is a large hurdle and I think it has been slowly dragging me down this year. But I try to stay positive by attending mass regularly and avoiding everything on the radio but CCM and such stations (ok, I’ll admit I listen to ESPN during football season …).

Can we ask the mods to set up specific groups within the infertility topic. I would propose the following obvious breakdown of sub-threads:

treatments,
foster care/adoption,
men’s support group,
women’s support group,
extended family concerns,
infertility and society,
infertility and the Church,
coping with the loss of a child,
anecdotes …

That’s all I can come up with at the moment. I think this would be a good ministry for this board and have a hard time believing mods would be against it. Who do we contact to set this up, do you know?

I agree that the holidays are hard. The long hours at work during the holiday season also take their toll, seemingly to compound the stress.

Peace,
TJ
 
I just posted a thread about improving this section to the suggestion box in this board. Please feel free to go to my post and add any comments you wish, voice support or concern, or otherwise.

See:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7408213#post7408213

TJ
Hi TJ:

I added my two cents there. I read the entire 67 page thread before posting, and I did see that a similar idea had come up before, but was ultimately turned down. One of the things that troubles me is that nobody really seems to know what the metaphysical status of “infertility” is. Is it just another charism? Is it a disorder that should be avoided? Is it a disease that must be treated, via medical means? The doctors certainly consider it a type of illness, but I’ve had a really hard time finding out what the Church teaches on this. The best I’ve seen is (so far) the admission that it isn’t evil (this seems to be a fairly recent teaching; it is pretty much absent in the Patristic literature).

Jacques
 
Wow, thanks for reading all that for us Jacques! I do not have the patience to go through all those pages and would probably end up stopping every time I hit an IVF discussion blowout.

I also read your post at the suggestions thread. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It is disturbing to think that well, since the Church Fathers believe the main purpose of marriage is procreation there may be some out there who feel there’s no reason to be married then if you can’t procreate. However, I think we have to look carefully at those Church teachings and see if the terms concerning “procreation” may also encompass adoption. And even if that does not apply, it is just very hard for me to think that some out there would believe such a thing to be evil or against Church teachings, i.e. to be married and unable to raise children. We cannot possibly understand all of God’s ways and this is one of those instances I think where our mere mortal understanding of life fails us. But God does have a plan, I am certain of that. He designed as all exactly as we are. Thus, the particular status of our child-rearing capabilities must be part of some great plan, part of the tapestry of which we can only glimpse pieces.

It is very disturbing to me that there are some (many?) in this world who believe that if you cannot bear children naturally, well then you just weren’t meant to have children and should just give up, i.e. implying that we would probably make terrible parents which is why God designed us this way (!). No kidding I have read this in other places on the internet. Perhaps a minority sentiment of the general populous but still very hurtful.

The article I reposted in an earlier post I think sheds great light on the concept that this status of ours can be considered a blessing in many ways. I really like the way it outlines those ways in which this condition may be seen as a blessing within the Church. It is the veritable “silver lining” that we must look at, the attempt to distinguish what God’s plan is for us in light of our situations and surroundings.

I wonder why the mods turned the idea down in the past and I wonder if the request was couched in similar terms. In any case, things change, mods change, mission statements change, etc. So we’ll see I guess. Maybe this time might be different. Meanwhile, with this information you provided, I am going to cast about the net to search for other “homes” with the fear that perhaps we will meet with the same outcome with our proposal, i.e. the mods will disagree with our proposal.

Peace,
TJ
 
Hi TJ:

Well, I’m of an open mind about IVF anyway, so these things don’t really disturb me much. Things are changing so much in reproductive technology these days, that it is quite conceivable that morally licit forms of this may someday be developed (from the Catholic perspective, that is. An example might well be treatments such as GIFT). It’s very hard for me to judge anyone who takes this on, as they have (usually) exhausted all other options, and are desperate. It is an interesting question just how culpable someone really is for a particular sin when they are “backed into a corner” and have no other choice.

I can’t speak for others, but I do know that many Catholics at our Church do think we are not following Church teaching (the assumption is, that if we aren’t having children, then we must be contracepting). The centrality of procreation to marriage is commonplace throughout all the Church Fathers…if you’re sufficiently inclined, most of them are all online, but it’s tough slogging, and my latin is not the best. 🙂 There’s a handy database of them here: cyprianproject.info/PL.htm

And the Catechism sorta summarizes the themes of the Church Fathers in 2373-2379 anyway. 2373 tells us that large families are a great blessing, and 2374 says that sterile couples suffer greatly, quoting Rachel’s own “give me children, or I shall die”. 2375 seems to say that medical research to reduce infertility is a good thing (thus validating the medical model of infertility as disease) 2376-2377 go into the nitty gritty of what fertility treatments are permissible and which are not. 2378 reminds us that children are a gift, and we have no right to demand them; and 2379 tells us that “sterility is not an absolute evil” (where I got yesterday’s pull quote from) but rather it is a cross to bear. It suggests instead we adopt, or serve others.

I’m interested in your quote that “the particular status of our child-rearing capabilities must be part of some great plan, part of the tapestry of which we can only glimpse pieces.” I do believe there is such a plan, as God controls and knows all things, but it is, all the same quite discouraging. The article you posted earlier I think has come up before, in the first pages of this monster-thread…Babies Deserve Better, from “This Rock” (1996). I actually wrote a small piece in this magazine many years ago, but on other topics. Your article is here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0604fea3.asp

Here’s the relevant section:

"Children, though, are not the only gift of marriage. Infertility, too, is a great and mysterious blessing. Just as much as fertility, infertility is a gift husband and wife give one another. It is an affirmation that “I still love you. I love all of you. And I refuse to allow anything to come between us.” Infertility is also a gift couples can give to God and to the world. Like Christ’s crucifixion, infertility is a sign of contradiction in a culture in which human life has lost its value.

As Fr. Mitch Pacwa once remarked to us, it seems as if God is asking infertile couples to fast for the sins against life committed by others. Instead of giving children to God, infertile families can give their suffering to him, their unfulfilled longing to conceive a baby. God will use this suffering to glorify his name and bring about the salvation of souls (John 9:1–3). Likewise, infertility is the gift God gives couples for the salvation of their own souls as well as the souls of any children they might eventually adopt. To reject this gift is to reject the specific means by which God wills to lead us to heaven."

This view is a charitable one, but VERY recent, and frankly is not typical of most of the Church’s history of writing about this topic. I’m disturbed about the notion that we should see this as a blessing, particularly when the Church promotes the efforts of doctors to research ways to get rid of it. If it’s really a blessing, surely we would encourage it, and pray for more and more people to become infertile, which is false. The idea of “gifting” here is strange.

The whole point of a gift is that it is something valued, desired, wanted. You can only give a gift “to God and the world” if the world realizes they’ve received it, and they don’t. Most Catholics I know think we’re on birth control, and others don’t consider it a gift at all (the whole point of a gift is that it is intended to make its recipient better off, happier, less sad, if you will). The “gift”, if it exists at all, is spiritual/invisible, so nobody even knows it’s there. As for God, I find it hard to believe He would seriously want a “gift” of this type; in the first passage, it’s supposedly a gift we give God, and in the second, it’s a gift He gives us. As I said, on it’s face the argument makes no sense at all, so either it hasn’t been carefully thought out, or it hasn’t been explained very well. But I’m glad you reposted it all the same, because it is one of the most positive and charitable of all the recent articles I’ve seen on this. “Embracing the Cross of Infertility” is another such effort; it is here:

hli.org/files/infertility_transcript.pdf

web.mac.com/johnmallon/Site/Cross_of_Infertility.html

You write, “I wonder why the mods turned the idea down in the past and I wonder if the request was couched in similar terms.” You can have a look if you like. I mined this huge mega-thread, and found the relevant posts, here. I don’t know if anybody turned things down, officially…rather, it was suggested, objections were thrown at the idea, and it died in the entropy of the thread, just as ours will.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=108039&page=52

Good luck, I hope your effort works.

Jacques
 
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