Infertility

[crazzeto]

Romans 6:
drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=6&l=15&f=s#x

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!
Rom 6:16 Know you not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death or of obedience unto justice.
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin but have obeyed from the heart unto that form of doctrine into which you have been delivered.

 

[caoindealbhan]

I’m just playing with you crazzeto, the actual crux here is that I don’t see any problem with IVF or artificial insemination. I truly don’t believe that the doctor involved has any ulterior motives to create a super race of children that are of his own creation or claim that he is God. He isn’t claiming that he created the sperm and egg. God did that. I truly think he only wants to help 2 people who want to have a baby. Period.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m just playing with you crazzeto, the actual crux here is that I don’t see any problem with IVF or artificial insemination. I truly don’t believe that the doctor involved has any ulterior motives to create a super race of children that are of his own creation or claim that he is God. He isn’t claiming that he created the sperm and egg. God did that. I truly think he only wants to help 2 people who want to have a baby. Period.

I would recommend again, that you read through this thread more carefully and the CCC if you believe that the issue at hand has anything to do with the motive of the doctor, or the motive of the parents. The issue at hand is the means, and once one resorts to intrinsically evil means, then the motives have become twisted regardless of the original intent.

Again, it it is best for one to accept with humility the will of God. Persue IVF or any other such means of “becoming pregnant”, and you put your soul at jepordy because you have committed grave sin. With out seeking the sacrament of reconciliation in the spirit of true penence you are cut off from sacramental life. And for what? For a false sense that you and your wife “had a child”? It isn’t so, when one persues such means you and your wife most certainly did not have a child. Because you are infertal, and that is just a fact of life. IVF can’t cure infertility, neither can artificial insimiation.

These means, are evil by their very nature. We can not persue them no matter what. If four children from your wifes previous marriage (btw, opens another can of worms… such as has your wife persued an anulment?) isn’t enough, then I would humbly suggest you persue fostering and adoption. You will find these far more satisfying and holy than the persuite of intrisically evil means of “getting what I want”.

 

[user3856530]

I would not resort to seperation from the Sacraments however, in order to “solve” this problem. Given the fact that your wife has 4 children from a previous marriage, it would seem likely that you are the one that is infertile. I’m very sorry for your, this is very difficult. However it would be worth noting that these condemend practices you cite, do not solve the fundamental problem of infertility. They attempt rather to do an end run around it, ie. give some one the impression that they’re no longer infertile.

IVF and associated treatments can solve the problem of infertility. People who undergo IVF generally have fertility problems and in many cases would be unable to have children without IVF. Of course it’s not always successful, but it does bring life where there otherwise would not be.

I thank God for giving us the gift of IVF and hope that others have the courage and strength to use it. God does indeed help those that help themselves.

 

[caoindealbhan]

So, I guess there is nothing more to say, except we can agree to disagree. Can we? Can I choose to go to hell, if I want?

PS- Yes, we actually did apply for an annulment and to my wife’s ex’s horror, she received it. I guess his attempt at murdering her “brought a bout a greater good.”

PSS- But, just for your information, if we hadn’t received an annulment, we still would have gone to Church, and received the sacraments, and raised the children to be good Catholics.

 

[crazzeto]

So, I guess there is nothing more to say, except we can agree to disagree. Can we? Can I choose to go to hell, if I want?

Yes, you can. Though I certainly would hope you would choose not to.

PS- Yes, we actually did apply for an annulment and to my wife’s ex’s horror, she received it. I guess his attempt at murdering her “brought a bout a greater good.”

That is great to hear

PSS- But, just for your information, if we hadn’t received an annulment, we still would have gone to Church, and received the sacraments, and raised the children to be good Catholics.

I figured as much, and not so great to hear. You could attempt to but your error would shine forth as a beacon before your children and would teach a lesson far more powerful than your act of believing your teaching your children how to be a good Christian.

One can not teach such a lesson living in this way… When one attempts to, the real lesson being taught is “only listen to God up until the point at which what God has to say is inconvinient”.

 

[crazzeto]

IVF and associated treatments can solve the problem of infertility. People who undergo IVF generally have fertility problems and in many cases would be unable to have children without IVF. Of course it’s not always successful, but it does bring life where there otherwise would not be.

I thank God for giving us the gift of IVF and hope that others have the courage and strength to use it. God does indeed help those that help themselves.

Eeeeh, in rare cases one can attempt to harvest eggs (for instance) and fertalize them with sperm from a husband who has good sperm… But, of course in the case we’re discussing here the husband is the one who is infertal, and as you point out there is a high degree of failure in the procdure you are discussing.

Thus it is far more common to pretend you and your spouse “had a child” when in fact what really happened is you selected (perhaps) an egg from a donar who looks a lot like the infertal wife… Or got sperm from a usually ananmous sperm donar (or got it from a donar who looks a lot like the husband) and had a child that way.

In this far more typical case, then married parents most certinaly did not have child. In this case the fertile parent had a child with whatever random stranger they happened to select.

Of course even in the rare case where what you said worked out, that still is an abuse of Gods gift akin to a spoiled child breaking his gifted toys on his birthday because it amuses him.

 

[user3856530]

Eeeeh, in rare cases one can attempt to harvest eggs (for instance) and fertalize them with sperm from a husband who has good sperm… But, of course in the case we’re discussing here the husband is the one who is infertal, and as you point out there is a high degree of failure in the procdure you are discussing.

From my experience, using the husband’s sperm and wife’s egg is the norm rather than the exception. It is was what we did.

Even with a man who can not fertilise naturally, through low sperm count, or motility for example, IVF may work. It may also work when sperm and egg are perfect, but there are other problems, with tubes for example.

IVF has a high failure rate, because we are dealing with infertile couples to start with. Even perfectly healthy people can take years to conceive naturally. A success rate of 10% (that we were given through God and IVF) is certainly better than zero (that the Catholic church wants us to have).

 

[crazzeto]

From my experience, using the husband’s sperm and wife’s egg is the norm rather than the exception. It is was what we did.

Even with a man who can not fertilise naturally, through low sperm count, or motility for example, IVF may work. It may also work when sperm and egg are perfect, but there are other problems, with tubes for example.

IVF has a high failure rate, because we are dealing with infertile couples to start with. Even perfectly healthy people can take years to conceive naturally. A success rate of 10% (that we were given through God and IVF) is certainly better than zero (that the Catholic church wants us to have).

From your experience?

 

[user3856530]

Yes, from my experience.
It seemed to be a common procedure in the IVF clinic we attended. Most other couples we knew were also using this method.
I don’t have any official figures on various treatments.

What difference does the specific treatment make anyway? - The Catholic church has imposed a blanket ban on all forms of IVF. Has the Catholic church deems any other medical treatments immoral? Like hip transplants, for example?

 

[sacredcello]

Please see this video for how the experience of going through IVF causes great harm to couples who choose it. This couple had two cycles of failed IVF treatments and then went on to be treated successfully by NaPro Technology which is a modern medical approach which deals more effectively with infertility by actually treating disease, rather than using immoral methods that do not treat disease:

youtube.com/watch?v=c1qKeOb47rI

and part two:

youtube.com/watch?v=c1qKeOb47rI

The fruit of IVF can be seen clearly for what it is here. Manipulation and dissent from Holy Mother Church cause grave harm to individuals and to society.

 

[user3856530]

I have no problem with NaPro. It’s brilliant. It’s yet another tool, along with IVF that’s been given to us by God.

Unfortunately, many incidences of infertility are through unknown causes, so we can’t ‘treat the disease’. IVF is the only hope for many couples.

I too ‘went through’ two cycles of IVF and succeeded on the third cycle. Should I do a youtube video detailing that? My life has been transformed for the better.

 

[sacredcello]

I have no problem with NaPro. It’s brilliant. It’s yet another tool, along with IVF that’s been given to us by God.

Unfortunately, many incidences of infertility are through unknown causes, so we can’t ‘treat the disease’. IVF is the only hope for many couples.

I too ‘went through’ two cycles of IVF and succeeded on the third cycle. Should I do a youtube video detailing that? My life has been transformed for the better.

Noting the time elapsed from my post to your next one, it appears you have no interest in watching a video by a couple who detail the emotional, spiritual and moral distress they experienced from being told that IVF was their only option. Only to discover that, in fact, they could conceive naturally, but only after rigorous medical treatment of both female and male factor infertility and becoming educated in Creighton Model Fertility Care.

Many couples are, unfortunately, given the same diagnosis as the couple in this video. They are misled to believe that there is no other option. When, in fact, the medical professionals have a vested interest in arriving quickly at the IVF “solution.”

The approach of NaPro doctors is quite different than an RE. The protocols are not at all the same, including surgical techniques for removing endometriosis that are more advanced than the usual laparoscopy in the standard approach. Pelvic adhesions are not left behind by NaPro doctors.

If anyone is interested in reading more about this emerging field in medicine, there is a new book by Dr. Hilgers called The NaPro Technology Revolution: Unleashing the Power in a Woman’s Cycle and is published in 2010.

 

[user3856530]

Noting the time elapsed from my post to your next one, it appears you have no interest in watching a video by a couple who detail the emotional, spiritual and moral distress they experienced from being told that IVF was their only option.

No, I didn’t watch it. I didn’t for two reasons:

1. I’ve already lived through it. I’ve been told that our best chance was IVF. It’s not nice and I don’t need a youtube clip to tell me that. We were never told it was our only hope. No one knows that.
2. You tacked this onto the end:

The fruit of IVF can be seen clearly for what it is here. Manipulation and dissent from Holy Mother Church cause grave harm to individuals and to society.

I know this to be complete BS. It led be to believe that the clips would be clearly biased against IVF and in the same vein as your posts.

Do you have any clips from people where IVF was a success, and the couple regretted it?
I experienced more emotional distress from the Catholic church when I discovered that IVF is against catholic doctrine.

 

[sacredcello]

Now some say, “How dare you say my child was not deliberately created by God!” I would agree with that statement. Every single child is deliberately created. And what our beautiful Catholic doctrine makes clear is that not every circumstance of conception is the deliberate will of God. A child of rape is a deliberate creation. The rape was a sin. A child of fornication is a deliberate creation. The fornication was a sin. A child of IVF is a deliberate creation. The IVF was a sin. All of those children are deliberate. They cannot be aborted.

And what is so amazing about God and what we are aware of through Catholic teaching, is that ***if ***we follow His will and use His design correctly, He will bring about those deliberate conceptions without sin! That is the good news that I was writing about in what was quoted. If we follow God’s design He will bring about those children. Those same children! He has a way in HIS perfect design that every child of fornication can be born in marriage. The parents just refused God’s design!

In God’s design the would-be rapist instead lives a holy and beautiful life, marries his would-be victim, conceives a child, dies a saintly death, and the mother goes on to marry her next saintly husband and has the rest of her family.

In God’s design the body is healed naturally because the would-be IVF couple has freely chosen God’s way of prayer and humility and conceived naturally, using medical science according to His design. Because seriously, honestly think about that. If sinful man could bring about a conception, God would have anyway if we had just followed Him. And He doesn’t charge $10,000 a pop!! His conceptions are FREE!

Because just like I said in the quoted section, I wanted a baby and I wanted it on my terms. In the end, as I conformed my will to His, His time frame *became *my time frame. He desired the conception of my kids exactly when they were conceived. I could have forced my will and brought about the conceptions through IVF. I didn’t. I did it His way. I appreciate my children as being true GIFTS from God. He didn’t just permit me to take them. He deliberately *gave *them to me, freely. What precious gifts they are!!

Yes.

 

[user3856530]

In God’s design the body is healed naturally because the would-be IVF couple has freely chosen God’s way of prayer and humility and conceived naturally, using medical science according to His design. Because seriously, honestly think about that. If sinful man could bring about a conception, God would have anyway if we had just followed Him. And He doesn’t charge $10,000 a pop!! His conceptions are FREE!

If you had cancer, would you wait for divine intervention, or seek out a cure using medical science? How many people are ‘naturally’ cured of cancer?

Many fertility problems are because there is a physical problem. A real problem that can be solved via IVF. Like cancer, these problems just don’t ‘go away’.

Human fertility decreases with age, by the way. Female fertility reduces greatly for each year past 35. So while waiting for a miracle may be noble, I believe it’s a terrible message to be giving to couples who could actively do something to conceive.

(God didn’t charge me anything either for our gift)

 

[crazzeto]

If you had cancer, would you wait for divine intervention, or seek out a cure using medical science? How many people are ‘naturally’ cured of cancer?

Many fertility problems are because there is a physical problem. A real problem that can be solved via IVF. Like cancer, these problems just don’t ‘go away’.

Human fertility decreases with age, by the way. Female fertility reduces greatly for each year past 35. So while waiting for a miracle may be noble, I believe it’s a terrible message to be giving to couples who could actively do something to conceive.

(God didn’t charge me anything either for our gift)

Infertility is not a life threatening disease, and there are other options. One such was pointed out here, another often forgotten in this abortion obsessed society is adoption.

 

[user3856530]

Infertility is not a life threatening disease, and there are other options. One such was pointed out here, another often forgotten in this abortion obsessed society is adoption.

Why bring abortion into this? This has nothing to do with abortion.

Infertility is life threatening to the unborn child. A child that could exist through IVF. A life that would exist if it wasn’t for the catholic church.

 

[sacredcello]

Why bring abortion into this? This has nothing to do with abortion.

Infertility is life threatening to the unborn child. A child that could exist through IVF. A life that would exist if it wasn’t for the catholic church.

Abortion has everything to do with it. Many IF couples are discouraged that the adoption process is so lengthy and often involves traveling to other countries. This is a noble and heroic effort on the part of the adoptive parents who go the extra mile. If we didn’t perform 1.3 million abortions every year in this country, then more IF couples would be able to adopt without a 4 year wait (in many cases).

The connection between artificial birth control (which gives a false sense of security to many young people who are not married), abortion and IVF could not be more clear.

NaPro doctors, on the other hand, encourage couples to consider adoption once all other medical means of treatment have been explored. This is a legitimate form of building one’s family and it is not to be considered a failure. It is perfectly moral and respectful of life and requires generosity of heart and openness. Such is not the case with IVF which is built on a foundation of destroying life. So many embryos which are human persons, are created by immoral means and then discarded or aborted (in the case of multiples) and many are still frozen. These are human persons. You cannot say that IVF is a moral choice when lives are being destroyed. The means do not justify the end.

 

[user3856530]

Abortion has everything to do with it. Many IF couples are discouraged that the adoption process is so lengthy and often involves traveling to other countries. This is a noble and heroic effort on the part of the adoptive parents who go the extra mile. If we didn’t perform 1.3 million abortions every year in this country, then more IF couples would be able to adopt without a 4 year wait (in many cases).

You obviously live in a different country to me. Abortion is illegal where I live.
As for adoption, well this is pretty much ruled out for us. I do know of another couple who have being trying to adopt for many years, without success. They spent a fortune going through all the red tape trying to adopt a foreign child, but the rules changed, and they are back to square one. All in all, they think it’ll cost at least €20,000. However, it does not look good that they’ll ever be successful.

The connection between artificial birth control (which gives a false sense of security to many young people who are not married), abortion and IVF could not be more clear.

Please elaborate. I can’t see any connection at all between IVF and abortion.

NaPro doctors, on the other hand, encourage couples to consider adoption once all other medical means of treatment have been explored. This is a legitimate form of building one’s family and it is not to be considered a failure. It is perfectly moral and respectful of life and requires generosity of heart and openness. Such is not the case with IVF which is built on a foundation of destroying life. So many embryos which are human persons, are created by immoral means and then discarded or aborted (in the case of multiples) and many are still frozen. These are human persons. You cannot say that IVF is a moral choice when lives are being destroyed. The means do not justify the end.

What I have learnt from this forum, is IVF is against catholic doctrine for the given reason is that it interferes with the ‘marital act’.

For our IVF (I’ve already detailed earlier in this thread) we had only one embryo. None were murdered. None were frozen. We were given odds of 10% success because we were using one embryo.

I’ll reiterate;
Infertility is life threatening to the unborn child. A child that could exist through IVF. A life that would exist if it wasn’t for the catholic church.