Infertility

[sacredcello]

Please elaborate. I can’t see any connection at all between IVF and abortion.

Both are sinful practices that, in fact, manipulate or destroy life. As a society, we have become more accepting of sin and it has become institutionalized. For example, gay marriage is approved by the state in many different countries, insurance pays for abortion and IVF as a “medical treatment” and Christians who wish to adopt or foster a child are not allowed to in some countries unless they renounce their moral views. We are becoming more and more selfish in our values. It is only about what I want and also about the agenda of “tolerance.”

What I have learnt from this forum, is IVF is against catholic doctrine for the given reason is that it interferes with the ‘marital act’.

Yes, this is correct. A child has a right to be conceived by an act of natural intercourse which is a renewal of the marital covenant.

I’ll reiterate;
Infertility is life threatening to the unborn child. A child that could exist through IVF. A life that would exist if it wasn’t for the catholic church.

My husband and I are currently experiencing infertility and are being treated by a NaPro doctor. If we go on to conceive and have children, you could make the argument that anything that interfered with my husband and I ever meeting in the first place would have been a threat to the lives of our children. If he or I met someone else before we met each other, for example, and, consequently, the two of us never married, then the lives of our children would have been threatened by these other people. Our children’s lives would not exist. You can see the absurdity of that type of argument. The Catholic Church is not preventing you from expressing love in a Christ-like manner that is both sacrificial and life-giving. There are plenty of options for love to be expressed, it does not need to be expressed biologically. Unless, of course, that is God’s will. But, IVF is and always will be contrary to the will of God.

And what of priests and nuns who love the Lord and neighbor wholeheartedly and express this love through their celibacy? They are able to love others (not just their biological relatives), more fully, freely, faithfully and fruitfully because of their sacrifice. They are witnesses to how all of us are called to love.

 

[user3856530]

My husband and I are currently experiencing infertility and are being treated by a NaPro doctor. If we go on to conceive and have children, you could make the argument that anything that interfered with my husband and I ever meeting in the first place would have been a threat to the lives of our children. If he or I met someone else before we met each other, for example, and, consequently, the two of us never married, then the lives of our children would have been threatened by these other people. Our children’s lives would not exist. You can see the absurdity of that type of argument. The Catholic Church is not preventing you from expressing love in a Christ-like manner that is both sacrificial and life-giving. There are plenty of options for love to be expressed, it does not need to be expressed biologically. Unless, of course, that is God’s will. But, IVF is and always will be contrary to the will of God

I sincerely hope that your NaPro works out. As an aside, we also found that DHEA helped us, so it might be worth checking out if you haven’t done so already.

I’m referring to the case where a couple that are actively trying to conceive. If they undergo IVF, they may be successful. The Catholic church does not permit IVF, so they never conceive. The same strand of logic could be applied to contraception.

For me, a human life, or a possible human life, is far higher than a contrived rule about interfering with the marital act.

IVF is contrary to catholic teaching. It might not always be contrary to catholic teaching either. The church has changed its mind before.

 

[sacredcello]

I sincerely hope that your NaPro works out. As an aside, we also found that DHEA helped us, so it might be worth checking out if you haven’t done so already.

Regular exercise increases the amount of DHEA circulating in the body. The use of DHEA can lead to an increase in estrogen and this is undesirable in our case since my infertility is at least partly due to increased estrogen and decreased levels of progesterone. Our doctor will continue to monitor these levels. Thank you for the well wishes.

For me, a human life, or a possible human life, is far higher than a contrived rule about interfering with the marital act.

IVF is contrary to catholic teaching. It might not always be contrary to catholic teaching either. The church has changed its mind before.

I agree that human life is a far great good than any good than that could come from the use of contraception. However, the Church has never changed her mind on any issue related to faith and morals. On issues related to discipline, yes, you are correct, that the Church has changed. For instance, we know have Mass in our native language instead of Latin. This is not a matter of faith or morals.

 

[ethereality]

In-vitro fertilization (IVF) results in human beings being created apart from the marital act (hence contrary to God’s ordering of nature), frozen and stuck in a freezer, if not killed. For these reason, it is sinful to support IVF.

It is a “case-closed” matter. There is no room for debate, because these are the facts of the matter. Kind of a “2+2=4” kind of thing; you can’t argue that maybe it’s 5 or not always 4.

(To clarify, in case you really don’t know: They often create and implant several embryos – little human persons – hoping some will “stick” (to the uterine wall), and later “scoop out” and kill however many the parents don’t want (if more than one person survives this process), to avoid the “Octo-mom scenario” of having eight kids at once, and so on.)

 

[user3856530]

ethereality - they are not the ‘facts of the matter’

IVF is against catholic doctrine because it ‘interferes with the marital act’. That’s it. It’s also highly subjective. Far from ‘case closed’

There’s no need to add all the other emotive stuff.
Our one embryo wasn’t frozen, killed, scooped out etc, etc…
IVF hasn’t negatively effected our marriage.
I’ve read so much anti-IVF stuff in this thread that is simply untrue.

sacredcello - An example where the Church as changed its stance is the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

 

[crazzeto]

ethereality - they are not the ‘facts of the matter’

IVF is against catholic doctrine because it ‘interferes with the marital act’. That’s it. It’s also highly subjective. Far from ‘case closed’

There’s no need to add all the other emotive stuff.
Our one embryo wasn’t frozen, killed, scooped out etc, etc…
IVF hasn’t negatively effected our marriage.
I’ve read so much anti-IVF stuff in this thread that is simply untrue.

It violates the doctrine of the true church, it violates the doctrine of Christ. So you implanted one embryo, well great perhaps on some level that might some what lessen your sin. But I do find it distressing that you cling to this sin so tightly, you act as if the doctrine is an attack on your very being, or I gather perhaps more an attack on your child.

It’s neither, the doctrine is a right interpretation of moral law informed by scripture and tradition by proper magesterial authority. It’s as simple as that.

sacredcello - An example where the Church as changed its stance is the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

I do typically try to be as charitable as I can, but realy all I have is what an ignorant and lame thing to say.

 

[sacredcello]

sacredcello - An example where the Church as changed its stance is the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Many people have the quite false impression that the Church has been in perpetual conflict with science. Much of our modern mythology about Galileo began with the rise of the secular university in the 19th century and is based on books written at that time and the whole affair began to be used as a stick to beat the Church.

The Church went after Galileo on a technicality, but it had nothing to do with his stance on the Earth revolving around the Sun. Galileo had been talking about his heliocentric theory for over 10 years before the trial and he received Church permission to publish them. In fact, many of his books received an imprimatur. If you are interested in hearing from a renowned astronomer about the political reasons that Galileo was put on trial having to do with the Thirty Years War, here is a scintillating interview:

youtube.com/watch?v=ShSDNj7wUTU

None of this, by the way, is relevant to the current discussion because our current scientific understanding of the solar system has nothing to do with faith and morals. Your example is similar to the example I gave of the Church liturgy changing from Latin to the vernacular. It is not related to the topic of morality.

 

[Magnavox]

ethereality - they are not the ‘facts of the matter’

IVF is against catholic doctrine because it ‘interferes with the marital act’. That’s it. It’s also highly subjective. Far from ‘case closed’

There’s no need to add all the other emotive stuff.
Our one embryo wasn’t frozen, killed, scooped out etc, etc…
IVF hasn’t negatively effected our marriage.
I’ve read so much anti-IVF stuff in this thread that is simply untrue.

sacredcello - An example where the Church as changed its stance is the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Well for one I have to say this to you. Jesus Christ left us the Magisterium of the Church, and he said whoever doesn’t listen to them is a heretic. I think that includes you.

The Church says IVF is not acceptable. No true Catholic gives a flying rip what you think on the matter. Case is closed.

I will be loyal to the church not some heretic with there own personal opinion. Sounds like a protestant to me.

 

[dkoinzan]

user3856530,
You are making a judgement on the Church teaching without the knowledge of Church teaching. Instead of proclaiming that the Church is wrong why don’t you use your time researching exactly what it is that she teaches. I see this over and over again and it is very sad. Obviously you have access to a computer. Go to the Vatican web sight and look up the encyclicals on life and the human body. You can’t proclaim someone wrong when you haven’t done your homework.

 

[sacredcello]

Back to the topic of infertility…

My husband and i have been ttc for just over a year through charting via STM. We only recently became aware of the specifics of Creighton model and are seeing a NaPro doctor. She has prescribed Prometrium (natural progesterone) for P+3 to P+12. We’re on P+5 right now. Maybe this will be our month!

Meanwhile, the emotional side of things is difficult. We both want a child, yet I came from an abusive home. I am 40 (almost 41) and dh is 49. I am a professional cellist, so there is consolation in work. I am a convert to the RCC and have studied a lot on my own. I pray that we will conceive and raise up children with vocations to the priesthood. It is a prayer that is dear to my heart. DH is Catholic, but had a Protestant mother, so he has ideas about ordaining women to the priesthood which he mostly keeps to himself, but is mildly disturbing to me. My father-in-law is a much more openly dissenting Catholic…so we’d have to protect the children from his vile opinions. It’s a mess, but that’s our story in a nutshell.

Anyone else who is struggling with infertility and wishes to share is welcome.

Peace of Christ be with you!

 

[crazzeto]

Back to the topic of infertility…

My husband and i have been ttc for just over a year through charting via STM. We only recently became aware of the specifics of Creighton model and are seeing a NaPro doctor. She has prescribed Prometrium (natural progesterone) for P+3 to P+12. We’re on P+5 right now. Maybe this will be our month!

Meanwhile, the emotional side of things is difficult. We both want a child, yet I came from an abusive home. I am 40 (almost 41) and dh is 49. I am a professional cellist, so there is consolation in work. I am a convert to the RCC and have studied a lot on my own. I pray that we will conceive and raise up children with vocations to the priesthood. It is a prayer that is dear to my heart. DH is Catholic, but had a Protestant mother, so he has ideas about ordaining women to the priesthood which he mostly keeps to himself, but is mildly disturbing to me. My father-in-law is a much more openly dissenting Catholic…so we’d have to protect the children from his vile opinions. It’s a mess, but that’s our story in a nutshell.

Anyone else who is struggling with infertility and wishes to share is welcome.

Peace of Christ be with you!

I will pray for the two of you, that you are blessed with children

 

[Amber2]

To those who are desperate to have children I have an advise.
Buy the book:
Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize and read it 10 times.
I know it sounds strange but this book has taken my faith to a level of believing for concrete blessings, that I had never imagined. It has changed my life.
I wish you all all the best
Amber

 

[sacredcello]

I will pray for the two of you, that you are blessed with children

Thank you, crazzeto. I appreciate your prayers. May God bless you.

 

[maryourhope]

Dear friends,

I went through the journey of infertility for more than a year and it was the most devastating experience I had to go through as a woman. I keep you in my prayers ALWAYS. Please know that you’re not alone. That is what was the most difficult for me: the silent suffering. Know that we love you and pray for you always.

 

[sacredcello]

Dear friends,

I went through the journey of infertility for more than a year and it was the most devastating experience I had to go through as a woman. I keep you in my prayers ALWAYS. Please know that you’re not alone. That is what was the most difficult for me: the silent suffering. Know that we love you and pray for you always.

Thank you, maryourhope. Your prayers and comfort are appreciated.

I’m glad you are on the other side of the IF now. Do you wish to share about it? Did you receive any medical treatment or was there anything you did, such as diet, exercise and supplements that helped? Thank you, and God bless you.

 

[umichstudy]

Hello,
I am a doctoral student at the University of Michigan researching Catholic women’s experience with infertility. I am looking for Catholic infertile women to interview and hope that you will contact me if you would like to share your experience.
I would be happy to conduct interviews over the phone/skype if you are not in the Michigan area.
For more information, or to volunteer, please contact me:
Danielle Czarnecki, PhD student
Dept. of Sociology, University of Michigan
dczar at umich dot edu

This study has been reviewed and approved by The Health Sciences and Behavioral Sciences Institutional Review Boards (IRB-HSBS)

 

[JacquesMaritain]

Hi Everyone:

I’ve been away awhile, and things haven’t really changed much. My wife’s sister is pregnant again (number three) so that sort of “kicks the can” down the road a little bit, for another year, perhaps. I suspect a lot of things might happen between then and now.

But there are encouraging developments. You never know when modern science might come up with a (potential) solution to your problems. I read today on slashdot (a techie blog) of an infertile woman who successfully received a uterine transplant from her own mother, in order to carry a pregnancy to term. This is the second time in history a human uterine transplant has ever been attempted, and the first time ever between a mother and daughter. There are many technical details to work out, but it is a really interesting idea. The full story is here:

singularityhub.com/2011/06/18/in-a-medical-first-infertile-daughter-will-receive-uterus-from-mother-video/

I can’t see anything obviously wrong on any moral level here, as organ donation is permitted in the Church. The Catechism says (2296) “Organ transplants are in conformity with the moral law if the physical and psychological dangers and risks to the donor are proportionate to the good sought for the recipient.” I suppose the medical experts have to decide how serious the risks are, and act accordingly.

Jacques

 

[JacquesMaritain]

Back to the topic of infertility…

My husband and i have been ttc for just over a year through charting via STM. We only recently became aware of the specifics of Creighton model and are seeing a NaPro doctor. She has prescribed Prometrium (natural progesterone) for P+3 to P+12. We’re on P+5 right now. Maybe this will be our month!
Meanwhile, the emotional side of things is difficult. We both want a child, yet I came from an abusive home. I am 40 (almost 41) and dh is 49. I am a professional cellist, so there is consolation in work. I am a convert to the RCC and have studied a lot on my own. I pray that we will conceive and raise up children with vocations to the priesthood. It is a prayer that is dear to my heart. DH is Catholic, but had a Protestant mother, so he has ideas about ordaining women to the priesthood which he mostly keeps to himself, but is mildly disturbing to me. My father-in-law is a much more openly dissenting Catholic…so we’d have to protect the children from his vile opinions. It’s a mess, but that’s our story in a nutshell. Anyone else who is struggling with infertility and wishes to share is welcome.
Peace of Christ be with you!

Hi SacredCello:

I will keep you in my prayers as well. Try not to worry about your father-in-law, that’s a long way in the future anyway, concentrate on the here and now, I think. After you finally do succeed, then see what your in-laws’ attitudes look like (they may well change). My wife and I are converts too, we have been in the Church for a few decades now, and have been trying to have children for so long that we have effectively given up (we’ve had several pregnancies, but none of them survived). We feel largely abandoned/forgotten by our Parish, which is completely kid-centered. So we have to manage on our own as best we can, and figure things out for ourselves. I hope things work out for you!

Jacques

 

[Warrior1979]

Abortion has everything to do with it. Many IF couples are discouraged that the adoption process is so lengthy and often involves traveling to other countries. This is a noble and heroic effort on the part of the adoptive parents who go the extra mile. If we didn’t perform 1.3 million abortions every year in this country, then more IF couples would be able to adopt without a 4 year wait (in many cases).

As the parent of internationally adopted children, and someone that previously took steps to adopt at home, I can tell you the above post is nonsense. The problems have to do with the nonsense one must go through in the U.S. to adopt at home, as well as the potential of the birth parents to wreak havoc on the adoptive family’s life down the road.

 

[sacredcello]

Hi SacredCello:

I will keep you in my prayers as well. Try not to worry about your father-in-law, that’s a long way in the future anyway, concentrate on the here and now, I think. After you finally do succeed, then see what your in-laws’ attitudes look like (they may well change). My wife and I are converts too, we have been in the Church for a few decades now, and have been trying to have children for so long that we have effectively given up (we’ve had several pregnancies, but none of them survived). We feel largely abandoned/forgotten by our Parish, which is completely kid-centered. So we have to manage on our own as best we can, and figure things out for ourselves. I hope things work out for you!

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques, I will pray for you, too. It is best, as you say, to focus on the here and now. God bless you.