Inflated numbers

[NonDenom]

Hi All
I found this website very interesting. I know what most of you will say, but I’m still interested in you feedback.
In Him and Only Him.
[ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm](http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm)

 

[Veritas41]

This is the way I look at it: after 2,000 years, there is still only one Catholic Church (all those Eastern Rites in communion with Rome as well as the Latin Rite Church) that teaches the same doctrines after 2,000 years. After 500 years, we have many, many different Protestant churches (just check your local Yellow Pages). Some of those churches, like the Southern Baptist, have had a pretty significant change in theology in just the past 100 years. And many more, like the article cited, have become very modernist and liberal and deny fundamental Christian teachings. Not so the Catholic Church (although individual Catholics share their modernism/skepticism).

Whatever specific number you want to place on the number of Protestant denominations, it still indicates fragmentation and disunity regarding belief and practice. God is not the author of confusion. This is one of the major things that led me out of evangelical Protestantism: the bad fruit of sola scriptura.

 

[JimG]

Even more interesting is the fact that most of the denominations that arose from the Reformation no longer believe the same religious doctrines which were believed by their founders–i.e. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. Not only have they multiplied in number; they have multiplied in doctrines.

 

[Milliardo]

Veritas41:

Whatever specific number you want to place on the number of Protestant denominations, it still indicates fragmentation and disunity regarding belief and practice. God is not the author of confusion. This is one of the major things that led me out of evangelical Protestantism: the bad fruit of sola scriptura.

Exactly. You can put it as high up as 30,000, or pare it down to 100+. The point is, Protestantism is still hopelessly fragmented, and will continue to multiply by division.

 

[Mickey]

Milliardo:

Exactly. You can put it as high up as 30,000, or pare it down to 100+. The point is, Protestantism is still hopelessly fragmented, and will continue to multiply by division.

This is true. The exact number is not important. Would 1st baptist, 2nd baptist, American baptist, and southern baptist count as four? Do they all have different doctrinal beliefs? I don’t know. There are many “non-denominational” churches that do not agree with one another.
The “divisive nature” of protestantism is the issue .

 

[NonDenom]

This is true. The exact number is not important. Would 1st baptist, 2nd baptist, American baptist, and southern baptist count as four? Do they all have different doctrinal beliefs? I don’t know. There are many “non-denominational” churches that do not agree with one another.
The “divisive nature” of protestantism is the issue .

Hi
I knew that this would happen, you are only addressing one of the issues brought up in this article. There are many different denoms, or different groups among the Catholic church.
What say you?

 

[Milliardo]

NonDenom:

There are many different denoms, or different groups among the Catholic church.

There are no different denominations within the Catholic Church. There are different religious orders and groups within the Church, though, but they all adhere to the teachings of the Church, as well as still have an allegiance to the Pope. Hardly the case at all with Protestantism. The two are clearly not the same.

 

[Tonks40]

There are also different rites in the Catholic Church, but it does not indicate any sort of division within it. They still hold Apostolic succession and they believe in the same doctrine. That’s why we are all unified in the Church.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

JimG:

Even more interesting is the fact that most of the denominations that arose from the Reformation no longer believe the same religious doctrines which were believed by their founders–i.e. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. Not only have they multiplied in number; they have multiplied in doctrines.

Do you know of a list of said doctrines?

Concerning Second Coming
Almillianism
pre-trib
post-trib
mid-trib
preterest
partual preterest

concerning tongues
all speak in tongues as proof of salvation
none speak in tongues
some have the gift of tongures

baptism
baptismal generation
baptism symbolic

Godhead
Trinity
Ariansism ( cult )
Sabellism (cult )
Holy Spirit active force ( cult )
Bi-nity

Perfectionism

anything else you can think of?

 

[JimG]

Daniel Marsh:

anything else you can think of?

The list you gave is good. I was thinking mainly of Protestantisms original founders such as Luther who maintained such Catholic Marian doctrines as the perpetual virginity of Mary, yet their denominational descendants abandoned those doctrines.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

It would be interresting to find out when they abandend those teachings. Was it before some of those doctrines were made infallible doctrine?

 

[NonDenom]

Read this part of the article.

No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism. Moreover, Barrett indicates in the case of Roman Catholicism that even this number can be broken down further to produce 2,942 separate “denominations”—and that was only in 1970! In that same year there were only 3,294 Protestant denominations; a difference of only 352 denominations. If we were to use the Roman Catholic apologist’s method to “project” a figure for the current day, we could no doubt postulate a number upwards of 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations today! Hence, if Roman Catholic apologists want to argue that Protestantism is splintered into 8,196 “bickering” denominations, then they must just as readily admit that their own ecclesial system is splintered into at least 2,942 bickering denominations (possibly as many as 8,000). If, on the other hand, they would rather claim that among those 2,942+ (perhaps 8,000?) Roman Catholic denominations there is “unity,” then they can have no objection to the notion that among the 8,196 Protestant denominations there is also unity.

In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

 

[scylla]

I was not aware that when I attended the Catholic Church in Mexico a couple months ago I was attending a different denomination. Hmm let me think about that…

Seems like this article is really straining to twist fact into a sophist arguement against the Church Jesus Christ established.

We recited and professed the same faith which is united in one faith with one Pope that we recognize as the successor of Peter who was chosen by Jesus. I can go to Italy, Australia and Africa and still be united in doctrine.

So this 223 or 2,942 is pretty inaccurate as Catholics are known by the unity in doctrine and profession of the faith handed down from the apostles.

So Eric Svendsen is clearly bearing false witness and leading people astray.

We will never know how many divisions there are and I would always stress never to cite numbers in Protestantism as this never will be accurate.

Anyone professing a faith that is founded from people who haven’t been sent as the Apostles did are commiting the same sin Simon Magus did in the Acts of the Apostles.

This is one reason I left Calvary Chapel (a nondenom) which Chuck Smith started on his own interpretation of the Bible. By doing this and not seeking a faith that is from God but created by man he sins in the same way Simon Magus did and creates more division in Protestantism, since he didn’t become Catholic from Four Square Gospel but in turn started yet another denomination.

Please read this article carefully and look at the blatant misrepresentation presented by Eric Svendsen who puts himself in the place of God by declaring his own interpretation and leading people astray.

Come home to the Catholic Church, Nondenom you wont lose freedom as it seems, but you will gain everything.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Tonks40]

scylla:

I was not aware that when I attended the Catholic Church in Mexico a couple months ago I was attending a different denomination. Hmm let me think about that…

Yeah, I must’ve attended different denominations of Roman Catholicism in the Philippines, in Guam, in Hawaii, in Texas, Chicago, Alameda…the list goes on and on!

How I have been decieved!!! And to think that the Liturgies in the Mass all looked the same! Right down to the genuflecting and crossing of ourselves!!

I’ll never be fooled again!

 

[Milliardo]

NonDenom:

No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism.

Would you mind giving us an idea who Barrett is? Also, what is his basis for this, and how much does he actually understand Catholic teaching and the various religious orders and groups within the Church?

Moreover, Barrett indicates in the case of Roman Catholicism that even this number can be broken down further to produce 2,942 separate “denominations”

Again, what is his basis for this? What does he mean when he says Catholic “denominations”? Does he consider the various religious orders as separate “denominations”?

In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy).

That is a strange way of putting a denomination. So, for instance, the Jesuits are a denomination in itself then?

This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations.

Unfortunately, though, Barrett’s own understanding is flawed here. The various religious orders and groups within the Catholic Church aren’t strictly autonomous, since they still adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church. An example we can make of this are the political parties: they have their own rules and governing bodies, but they are not in any way independent of the nation. That could not be said of the various Protestant denominations, which do not only have their own independent rules and governing bodies, but even ideals and teachings distinct from each other. So, such a case could not be presented for the various Catholic groups and religious orders.

He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

This is cute, but no go. He would have to contend that each diocese is separate and independent from Rome, which is clearly not the case. He is making a case for Protestantism by making a flawed analysis. Unfortunately, it falls flat.

 

[Atreyu]

There is and can be only one Catholic denomination; allow me to explain why.

A faithful Catholic is a person who follows the Church’s teachings, recites and believes in the Creed, and takes Communion. When this Catholic takes Communion, he truly is in Communion with every other Catholic in the world, and every saint in Heaven. The focus of this unity (apart from the Trinity) is the bishop of Rome: the Pope. Whenever a Catholic takes Communion he is declaring allegiance to the bishop of Rome in terms of doctrine, and this is what makes him a Catholic. There are several rites within the Catholic Church - the most dominant of which is the latin rite - but no matter what rite you are in, taking Communion is a profession of unity of doctrine and faith with the Pope.

There are two groups that could be argued to be forming separate denominations within the Catholic Church, but they are not separate denominations of the Catholic Church, they are simply separate denominations of Christianity. In other words, they are as separate as the Orthodox, and so should not be considered “Catholic”. These two groups are:

• Dissenters - These guys aren’t really a separate denomination, they just form the body of the Church that isn’t necessarily, faithful. Every Church in the world has a group of people such as this, and so it would be impossible and useless to describe them as other denominations.
• Liberal and Conservative splinter groups - These guys do not profess a unity of belief with the bishop of Rome, and so they fail the Catholic litmus test.

Basically, you’re either with Rome, or you’re not. But if you choose to be with Rome, you’ll be with some one billion other people in the world today, not to mention all the saints in heaven. Sure some of these people may not be entirely faithful, but the faithful themselves would form a truly staggering figure throughout the ages.

 

[NonDenom]

I was not aware that when I attended the Catholic Church in Mexico a couple months ago I was attending a different denomination. Hmm let me think about that…

Hi All
When we go back home to where my wife used to live, we go to a Christisan church with the same set of beliefs we have at the church in our home town, When we visit our good friends in Arkansas we attend a church with the same set of beliefs that we have at the church in our home town. When we visit my wifes sister in Illinois we go to a church that has the same set of beliefs that we have at the church in our home town. The Catholic church would say that we attend four different denominations when we do this and they are wrong. I know of many church’s that hold to the same beliefs that we do but I don’t clasify them as different denominations.

Seems like this article is really straining to twist fact into a sophist arguement against the Church Jesus Christ established.

This statement truly shows the pridefull side of Roman Catholisism. The church that Jesus Christ established is HIS church or the Church of Christ, (not the denomination) but HIS church. HE and only HE will determine who belongs to HIS church.

We recited and professed the same faith which is united in one faith with one Pope that we recognize as the successor of Peter who was chosen by Jesus. I can go to Italy, Australia and Africa and still be united in doctrine.

We recite and profess the same faith which is united in one leader, and that leader is Jesus. I can go to many Nondenominationalized church’s that will be united under Christ.

So this 223 or 2,942 is pretty inaccurate as Catholics are known by the unity in doctrine and profession of the faith handed down from the apostles.

This is no more inaccurate than your numbers on the different denominations within Protestantism.

So Eric Svendsen is clearly bearing false witness and leading people astray.

No more than you are.

Anyone professing a faith that is founded from people who haven’t been sent as the Apostles did are commiting the same sin Simon Magus did in the Acts of the Apostles.

We do profess that faith, in Jesus Christ. Did the Apostles preach a faith in a church or a faith in Christ.

In Him and Only Him

 

[Erich]

NonDenom:

…No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism…

This topic is also addressed in this thread (where it is noted that Barrett is one of the editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia).

You can check out this link to see where the 223 number (or whatever the number du jour is) comes from, but basically Barrett counts each country as it’s own denomination. I’m not sure how he arrived at different numbers for denominations and countries, however.

 

[scylla]

NonDenom:

Hi All
When we go back home to where my wife used to live, we go to a Christisan church with the same set of beliefs we have at the church in our home town, When we visit our good friends in Arkansas we attend a church with the same set of beliefs that we have at the church in our home town. When we visit my wifes sister in Illinois we go to a church that has the same set of beliefs that we have at the church in our home town. The Catholic church would say that we attend four different denominations when we do this and they are wrong. I know of many church’s that hold to the same beliefs that we do but I don’t clasify them as different denominations.

If they profess the same beliefs as you do then they are essentially the same denomination, I wont argue with you there. The point is there are actually denominations which will disagree with you on doctrine despite being based on the Bible.

Please read my post carefully.

NonDenom:

This statement truly shows the pridefull side of Roman Catholisism. The church that Jesus Christ established is HIS church or the Church of Christ, (not the denomination) but HIS church. HE and only HE will determine who belongs to HIS church.

Amen
God determines who belongs to Him. He is the one who starts a Church, not a man who decides he has the right interpretation. Pride is what makes a man decide he can interpret the Bible on his own and invent his own beliefs. Humility results in submission to God’s will.
We must follow Christ Alone. That is what led me to the Catholic Church and away from Calvary Chapel.

NonDenom:

We recite and profess the same faith which is united in one leader, and that leader is Jesus. I can go to many Nondenominationalized church’s that will be united under Christ.

Yes you can go to many but not all… What about the Lutheran Church are they united in belief with you? Or is the Nondenominational Churches the only ones that are right?

NonDenom:

This is no more inaccurate than your numbers on the different denominations within Protestantism.

No more than you are.

I never stated in my post that there were a certain number of Protestant denominations, please read my post carefully I did not bear false witness.

Look up my previous posts on this forum and you will see I have discussed this before and stressed to others we shouldn’t specify numbers.

I am not afraid of truth, feel free to look up my previous posts, I clearly have not beared false witness like you imply.

As a Catholic we have a penalty for lying whereas Eric Svendsen has no such limitation in his belief system. I have absolutely no reason to lie as truth is on my side. Read the other posts carefully and you will see how he clearly has and doesn’t care about it as it furthers his point.

I invite any lurkers to look up my previous posts on this subject if you would like some clarification. Again, I have nothing to hide.
Would you do the same, nondenom?

NonDenom:

We do profess that faith, in Jesus Christ. Did the Apostles preach a faith in a church or a faith in Christ.

In Him and Only Him

I do not pit the Apostles against Jesus, in fact as a Christian I put the words of Jesus first. I am not a Paulist.
It is not one against the other to your preference, but to be taken as a whole.

Jesus founded a Church which the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against.
Where is the other time Jesus mentions a Church in the Gospel?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Veritas41]

When I was a Protestant, I visited churches of all different kinds–some with denominational affiliation, others independent or non-denominational. One taught I had to be baptized to be saved, others didn’t. Some taught I could lose my salvation through serious sin, others said I couldn’t lose it no matter what. None of these churches were in 100% agreement on some very fundamental salvation issues. 1 Timothy 3;15 calls the CHURCH the “pillar and foundation of truth”. Now if the Church is what you claim it is–all the various churches together–how can this verse be true? These churches can’t even agree on WHAT the truth is.